A Moral Dilemma

[Aphrodite]

Do your own personal beliefs have any impact on who you decide to be friends  with?  
This may not sound that serious, but I have a friend  who?s beliefs differ drastically from mine.  My dilemma is, she came to the conclusion that she was going to be my Maid of Honor in my wedding this year, even though I didn?t ask her to be.  Anyhow, she has also asked me to be hers, and I accepted. Even though I disagree with the person she?s choosing to marry, because I think she?s marrying him for the wrong reasons. I really feel uncomfortable with her being mine, because I don?t really feel like we are that close, and I feel uncomfortable around her because of her beliefs. I don?t know what to do. Is telling her honestly how I feel the best way to handle this?

You are probably wondering, what the heck does this have to do with being in Straight. Well, Straight altered the way my mind decides to do things in the real world sometimes. I don't believe that "anything goes" in the name of honesty. But I also don't believe in not being forward with people, but this one is a tuffy.

Any thoughts?

Aphro~    ::

[JDavid]

Just tell her you are going to have your wedding in Antarctica so she won't want to come!  Tell her that the tradition of Antarctic weddings is to sacrifice the Bride's Maids and the Maid of Honor by throwing her into a volcano!


[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-04-16 07:45 ]

[Aphrodite]

No fair, you're a man! :lol:
Aphro~

[JDavid]

Does your friend like Planet of the Apes?  Tell her that your wedding is going to have a Planet of the Apes theme and she will have to wear a monkey suit!  She won't come then unless she likes wearing the monkey costume.  If she shows up, make her wear it anyway even though no one else is wearing it.

[Tampa survivor]

I think that a person who is presumptuous enought to invite herself bridesmaid, may not take well to being told no.  Straight effected the way I dealt with people immensely.  Does this person "take the lead" in lots of things yall do?  If she "differs in values" or beliefs, how tight of a friend is she.
I think you know all that.  I hope you find a way to tell her.  Good luck.  Your wedding is YOURS.
Just the way YOU want it.
Bill

[Aphrodite]

Thanks for that Tampa survivor. And to answer your question; No, she doesn't take the lead in everything. She's not pushy at all, I'm the pushier one! Our friendship goes back over ten years. I just really don't want to hurt her feelings. Also, I've pictured myself raising my hand at her wedding when the officiant asks, "If there is anyone here who finds reason these two should not be joined..." and I'm supposed to be her maid of honor!  I'd never really do that, but how can I stand up for her?
This is really hard for me.

Aphro~

[ This Message was edited by: Aphrodite on 2003-04-14 15:25 ]

[Aphrodite]

Monkey suit!.... :lol: I'm being serious though. My sense of right and wrong were tremendously jaded because of Straight. That is no laughing matter to me. I've had more trouble in my life with intimate relationships and with my girlfriends. Now, I feel like I have  a handle on  my own life and I'm happy. For years I've made poor choices in people though. Where do you draw the line? I know it is a personal choice. She's not a bad person, I just don't agree with her beliefs.
  I like hearing other's points of view on it. Thanks...keep 'em comin'.

Aphro~

[ This Message was edited by: Aphrodite on 2003-04-14 16:09 ]

[Majiktrvls]

There is also nothing wrong with having two of your friends be the maids of honor. ONE is the Honorary maid, and the other is the real CHOSEN one. You don't mention if she is married, or how large your wedding party is......if there is a married one, you could choose to have a Maid and a Matron. Good luck in your decision.

[pepper53190]

I think in Straight we didn't really get to choose our girlfriends. We pretty much hand to deal with the hand we had. And I don't know about you but there were some slim pickins in my time.  I followed that out of straight too, fora long time I thought if they were nice to me then they HAD to be around.  Well now I think different.  If someone in my life can't hande me being REAL and can't handle constructive critisizem then I have no room for them in my life.  Of course this lesson came with many years of being used and screwed over. So it's really up to you the people you want to surround yourself, I agree it's your wedding......go for it.  And just because your hers doesn't mean squat.  And as far as not agreeing with who she's marrying.......my best friend hated every guy I went out with(until the present one) she said how she felt and what she thought but continued to be there for ME.  And she was there to wipe my tears and mend my broken hearts.  But the great thing was is that we have honesty, and that is why we have been successful for almost 10 years.  I hope it works out, I know its hard to be real when you are afraid of hurting someone, but you never know until you try. :wave:

[Aphrodite]

Thank you so much for your point of view.
What makes this a moral issue is that the man she loves, she can not have, so she is settling for someone she doesn't love. I find it to be very sad. It is like she is giving up on her own happiness, settling, and sacrificing her happiness for her child?s and her child?s father, whom she has not been with romantically for years, and who she has admitted has abused her, even when she was pregnant...It's almost impossible to touch that subject without sounding offensive to her I'm afraid..

 She is not a Catholic, but she is obsessed with Catholicism, and the 7 deadly sins. Her beliefs make me uncomfortable. Our political views are different too. Sometimes our phone conversations are strange and filled with uncomfortable silences. She sees her marriage as a sacrifice of herself for her daughter and her daughter's dad...It's kind of weird. I also think she may have an eating disorder, because of her particular fascination with GLUTTONY, and the fact that it seems like she starves herself. She?s absolutely teeny tiny.

She doesn?t sleep with her fiancé, he has a separate bedroom, instead she sleeps with the daughter every night. The daughter is 9 now. The man she loves is dead. She was never even with him! I'm not really sure if she knows what love is. I worry about her, but have no idea how to help her. It?s frustrating. I really care about her and her daughter a lot. Our children are like family.

 In Straight we are taught to confront people whose views were different than what was considered 'correct', and I know I don?t want to do that.I don't believe in one right and one wrong, but it's hard when you know your friend is not happy.

 Thought I?d throw that out there as a topic. It seems like there have been a lot of moral issues all over this board lately. Probably always will be I guess. Thought I?d see where this one stood with anyone. Thanks for the comments, I?d love to hear more. Sorry if this is to lengthly a rant! Relationships can be so complicated... people can be so complicated....I've spoken my mind. Good night.

Aphro~

[85 Day Jerk]

Wow, I never thought I would ever write about this, but here goes.  When I was on 4th phase, my sister was to be married.  Her boyfriend was an idiot, they were living in a freaking trailer and going into debt.  How the hell do you go into debt living in a trailer park?  Well, they were, and this was only 1979.  They were just kids and not ready for a damn thing.  The whole family was against the marriage, and then one by one everyone folded from the excitement, the food, getting all "gussied up" and the whole bit.

So here I am sitting in big group on the 4th phase side, and a relative comes to take us to the wedding that I had repeatedly said that I was not going to attend.  I guess they thought I was bullshitting or something.  My stepbrothers tried everything.  I was even threatened with a refresher by Mike Murphy in hushed tones as they were trying not to make a spectacle out of this.  Wow, we got us a straightling that is actually sticking up for a moral principle here.  I could almost smell the smoke coming out of his ears.  They did'nt back off my ass until I folded up the chair next to me and sat holding the chair with a look on my face that meant business.  They backed down at last, but then Doug Hemminger had the bright idea to make me work in the kitchen to see if I could ruin my dress clothes.

The wedding turned out to be a bunch of crap, my sister and her hubby both went into the Airforce together, were apart for 2 months, got stationed at 3 different bases and were divorced before their 2nd year of enlistment was up. My half sisters held a twisted grudge and did not invite me to their weddings years later.  No big loss there, they would have spent the whole day taking pot shots at me anyway.

As for myself, marriage is a private thing.  The people who have to surround themselves with all that other crap are just fooling themselves into believing they really have a special relationship.
I believe in a civil ceremony, and saving all that money that would have been wasted on a kick ass honeymoon, or the downpayment on a house.  The "wedding" could be in the form of a big ass housewarming party or something.   While it is no doubt that Straight really screwed up my secular thinking, I never forget for an instant that my family is just as screwed up as I ever was, hell my parents kept wine in the bedroom locked in a filing cabinet the whole time we were on our program!!   My own parents were full of shit, and it was nothing more than an obiediance school to them.

Over the years, I just stopped giving a damn about chasing women like they are some kind of prize, or something that you gotta 'have' in order to be complete.  I just went about my business and 'lo and behold last friday, a girl I barely knew just up and asked me out.  I don't know where the friendship will go, but it is uncanny how everything is falling into place.  She even lives in the same neighborhood.  I guess it is like that happiness is a butterfly story.  You go nuts running around chasing it, and when you finally get wore out and stop to rest, it softly lands on your shoulder.     -Bob

[ClayL]

There are a lot of issues here that are coming to light. The fact that this person was in an abusive relationship and is still, "in love" with the abuser leads me to believe that she will again chose another abuser to fall "in love" with. It is one of those viscious cycles that will keep repeating until the indivdual finds help.

The other issue is teh glutony thing. Persons who look like a worm with the shit slung out, complaining they are fat have always irritated me. This, however, is yet another symptom of a poor self image. It is also an issue I have dealt with from when I was 13 and my siblings were calling me fat ass. That self image never changed and now I look back at picture of me in my 20's and wonder what the hell was I thinking? I was positively skinny until I turned 30 and now I have to work on things. It sucks!

You should be happy with your Adonis and forget the straight things about confronting people with differing opinions. I really like the people I have met here a great deal, but disagree with them often on political issues. They have their opinions and they were shaped by their life's events; as were mine. This is a forum where disagreement can be posted and vented in some cases. Personal relationships are not this way. With my friends, there are times that I just keep my mouth shut (I know, hard to believe.) and continue to be supportive and let them make their own mistakes.

For example, when my mother died my father started dating after a period I'd consider so in appropiate as to be comical if it wasn't my father. He propmtly starts dating this person whom none of his kids like all that much. He also starts buying her REALLY expensive gifts. He at one point asked me my opinion, I only replied that if he was happy that was enough and my opinion didn't matter all that much. I still thank God he came to his senses! My dad was hell bent on getting remarried. Now, his current wife is not my mother so she already has 2 strikes and a 0-2 count against her. I'll tell my wife this but not any other family member.

I guess, in short, this is a weighty issue with no one correct answer. I guess you are just going to have to decide what out of all the things you have said are more important and move from there. Perhaps, you can talk about the first husband (?) and go from there. You can, gently work this around to see/suggest some kind of therapy to help resolve things that are, perhaps, still causing pain.

Just my thoughts.

Clay

[JDavid]

I wrote a little somethin' about marriage a few months ago.  I imagine this is useless to the Aphrodite marriage, but the info about her friend makes me want to put this out here.  The idea says to revolt against the license, but the real main idea is just to kinda shake things up about what marriage really is, or at least steer some people clear of getting a marriage license when they know the marriage is a bad idea.  Here it is...

Have a wedding ceremony, and include everything you always wanted in it... the wedding gown, tuxedos, all the guests, the brides' maids, the reception, the honeymoon, and do it at any church you want.  If you're not religious, do it somewhere besides a church.  See, that sounds great, right?  I left out one thing though... the marriage license.

Do you really need the government to validate and enforce your commitment to lifelong love and monogamy?  The first thing that will run through people's heads when they hear that a wedding couple is not going to use a marriage license is: "Then, it is not a real marriage".  That thought is an example of government brainwashing, and we should shake free of it.  What makes your marriage real is the fact that you decided to commit to it on your own, not by government influence, permission or force.  You as a couple are the reason a marriage came into existence, not the government.  What if there was no government at all?  Would your marriage commitment not be real?  Or, say the current government who issues your marriage license loses all of its power through war or something.  The government would be gone along with the government recognition of your marriage, but you are still married.

Getting engaged is real, right?  Getting engaged doesn?t have a government license in order to validate it, but it is real.

Allowing the government to recognize or enforce a marriage does a few things: 1. It basically turns courts and attorneys into the owners of your divorce, and you have to buy your right to leave a marriage from them. Divorce courts are famous for gender bias.  Divisionism among genders leads to large-scale gender discrimination.  Divisionism is the seed; discrimination is the full-grown tree.  2. It alienates gays & lesbians because the government deems them unworthy of lifelong love and monogamy. 3. It lets the government think they are the keepers of whether or not your morals and commitments are valid and real.

A marriage is a real thing without the government enforcement and validation of it.  We should be recognizing it that way as a society.  I would like for the people to stop telling the government that we regard them worthy of validating and enforcing our marriages by revolting against the marriage license.  Marriage should be a practice of enlightenment completely separate and apart from government, not brainwashing towards government intrusion.

If you want to change your last name to your spouse?s last name, go ahead and do it without the marriage license; however, government-validated names and identities is another issue, which will be written about separately.

You don?t need a government marriage to protect your beneficiaries.  You can name anyone you want to name in your last will and testament.  I am sure you would not forget to include your true spouse in your will.  You don?t need a marriage license to remind you of that.

Be sure the pastor or whoever conducts your wedding leaves out the phrase, "by the power vested in me by the state..." You could have them skip that and go to the part that says, "I now pronounce you man and wife" or whatever you want this person to say to represent the two of you.

Don?t let people say or think that your marriage is not real just because you don?t have a certificate filed away in a cabinet at the probate courthouse.  You don?t have to let people refer to you as a ?common-law? married couple either.  Common Law means: a rule of being or of conduct, established by an authority able to enforce its will; a controlling regulation.
 
This is not an insult to couples that do have marriage licenses.  Great people are always being pulled into government programs.  The marriage license is a completely separate entity from all of which makes your marriage real in the first place.  Your marriage license doesn?t defeat whether or not your actual marriage commitment is real.

After you go all out with your real wedding ceremony, refer to your spouse as your wife or husband always, and feel good about the fact that it's real, not a government institution.

[ClayL]

What is really sad is that even if your marriage is common law, if you own real property in common have children, etc. it will still take a judge and attorneys to leave the marriage.

CL

[ehm]

JDavid,
That is exactly what Jonathan and I are doing. His best friend will be our officiate! (he is ordained though some on-line deal) It?s real though. I don?t believe in our marriage being recognized by state in order for it to be real.
We thought of the idea last summer. Both of us wanted the wedding and everything that comes with it, but due to particular circumstances, it was not a smart decision financially. So I thought of this. We?re having legal papers however; giving each other power of attorney over each other, in case of emergency. And yes, I?m taking his name. I always jokingly sing:
We?ll do it ou---------r wa----y!

As far as Aphro?s situation, I really agree with Bob, that people  need to make their own decisions and mistakes. Rarely (if ever) will someone change their mind about life decisions, unless they learn for themselves. I also think the same applies to unhealthy choices, such as what you mentioned, the eating disorder, or child rearing and so on.
Unfortunately, your friend will have to learn the way we all do, in the school of hard knocks. Nothing truly worth it, comes easy. It takes hard work. Too many people settle, and yes, it really is sad. You can?t change your friend or her significant other. You can still stand next to her on her special day . You?re there for her.

As far as her being your maid of honor, as Bill said, this is your day. Set boundaries that keep you in control of your own wedding, let others help you, but don?t necessarily tie yourself to a specific ideal as to what you want. (Like the movies...) Be flexible. You don?t even have to have any one certain person be maid of honor, but if the dye has been cast, why mess with it. Anyone that would hold a grudge against you for not choosing them is not a true friend. Besides, you can always fill them in, in private.

Best of luck to you.
Morli