Author Topic: Moral Victory (Read 4813 times)

Anonymous · « **on:** January 31, 2007, 08:35:51 PM »

Some people will say whatever it takes to get kids drug free is well worth the effort, regardless of if the effort involves using straight inc methods. Other people have been dead set on ensuring that these methods are not used anymore. So, now that there is a 99.9% chance that PFC will get their precious $200,000 grant from Porter County, IN, there is an equal chance that someone, somehow, someday will get a chance to end this ongoing absurdity. For that, at least a valiant effort was made to educate the Porter County decision makers and will forever be considered at the very least, a moral victory. If they want abuse, they'll have abuse. Whatever it takes, however much it costs, they'll get their way... for now. :flame:

teachback · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2007, 08:43:26 PM »

It's good to know that people are trying to shut them down! Keep it up!

*jane* · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2007, 04:21:13 AM »

Quote from: ""Guest""

Some people will say whatever it takes to get kids drug free is well worth the effort, regardless of if the effort involves using straight inc methods. Other people have been dead set on ensuring that these methods are not used anymore. So, now that there is a 99.9% chance that PFC will get their precious $200,000 grant from Porter County, IN, there is an equal chance that someone, somehow, someday will get a chance to end this ongoing absurdity. For that, at least a valiant effort was made to educate the Porter County decision makers and will forever be considered at the very least, a moral victory. If they want abuse, they'll have abuse. Whatever it takes, however much it costs, they'll get their way... for now. :flame:

In my opinion (and is this william?? hi! if so), as long as this type of treatment is even moderately considered legal and "ethical" and people are willing to pay for it, they will find a way to keep these places open. I see two approaches which could get results: one is to change public opinion so they will lose their business. I noticed on the PFC site the other day they are listing some book recently published that supposedly proclaims they are one of 144 good treatment centers. Yet the criteria listed that the book used are clearly not in alignment with these facilities. I think going directly to these book publishers and informing them about the realities of these facilities may help keep such recommendations to a minimum.

Other means such as documentary videos or news stories or books would also work well in changing public opinion. I know there have been a lot of news stories and books already...I think this is one of the more productive avenues to take as public opinion will determine to a large extent what types of services facilites decide to offer since thats where the money will be.

The other approach is through research done by Ph.Ds. These are the guys who ultimately determine what becomes ethical by licensing boards, not to mention that when certain treatment options become accepted by psychologists and counselors, those types of facilities are the ones that are going to get the most referrals, and the others will not (except of course by agencies who get paid to make referrals).

In my opinion, a large obstacle to all of this is AA...AA itself is based on many of the same philosophies found in these straight types of facilites. Such as dont think for yourself, admit powerlessness, confrontation (although not to the same extent of course), hitting rock bottom, alcoholism is a disease. What type of research has been done on the efficacy of AA? Not much as it is, you know, anonymous. Yet how can this be ethical??

The state of affairs in drug treatment is basically on the level of a bunch of uneducated people running abusive treatment centers that a bunch of uneducated people will pay to have their child put into. Its downright medieval--we are living in the freaking dark ages.

teachback · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:11:12 AM »

Just start killing some of them off.

Make it random, and make the deaths horrific.

Terrorize them the way they terrorized us!

teachback · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:14:38 AM »

"I may not change the world, but I guarantee I?ll spark the mind that does? ::hehehmm::

Anonymous · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:11:55 AM »

:flame: :flame: :flame:

:roll:

Anonymous · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:12:40 AM »

Date posted online: Thursday, February 01, 2007
Officials mull CEDIT to fund Pathway
VALPARAISO: County Council president says teen-help center needs public backing
BY BOB KASARDA
bkasarda@nwitimes.com
219.548.4345

VALPARAISO | As momentum builds in support of helping Pathway Family Center open a teen drug treatment center here as soon as August, county officials are considering giving public funds to the effort.

"I think we're all of the mind we must do something and it's going to take a contribution by the county," Porter County Council President Dan Whitten said Wednesday morning.

No definite amount of money has been agreed to, but Whitten said a contribution of up to $200,000 has been discussed.
The most likely source for that kind of money would be the county economic development income tax, which would require approval by both the County Council and commissioners, Whitten said.

Porter County Commissioner Bob Harper, who attended an informational forum on Pathway on Tuesday night, said he asked for a meeting with Pathway officials to discuss the issue of funding.

He said there are no limits on the CEDIT funding that would stop the revenue from being contributed to Pathway.

"I believe these people are sincere," Harper said, dismissing concerns Pathway is similar to abusive treatment programs of the past.

Porter County Council member Bob Poparad also attended this week's forum on the Pathway proposal. He said he has more research to do before making up his mind on the issue.

Pathway Chief Executive Officer Terri Nissley said Pathway needs a little more than $1 million to set up shop in Porter County.

The group has raised some of the funding, helped by a $100,000 pledge from the local Community Action Drug Coalition. The remaining balance is $540,000, including $200,000, which is needed before a local staff can be hired, she said.

The group will be relying heavily on fundraising and grants, Nissley said.

The plan is to locate the new center in Valparaiso with a staff of between 18 and 20 people, she said. An exact location has not been determined.

Whitten defended the proposed contribution as appropriate, considering the county's responsibility to fund operations at the jail. An investment in treatment is cheaper than housing someone at the jail, he said.

"This is an alternative budgeting method in my opinion," he said.

As far as the county's financial struggles, Whitten said a one-time contribution like this is different than funding ongoing costs such as raises and new county employees.

Whitten said he expects the proposed contribution to surface before the council in the near future.

Anonymous · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:20:27 AM »

In my opinion, a large obstacle to all of this is AA...AA itself is based on many of the same philosophies found in these straight types of facilites. Such as dont think for yourself, admit powerlessness, confrontation (although not to the same extent of course), hitting rock bottom, alcoholism is a disease. What type of research has been done on the efficacy of AA? Not much as it is, you know, anonymous. Yet how can this be ethical??

The state of affairs in drug treatment is basically on the level of a bunch of uneducated people running abusive treatment centers that a bunch of uneducated people will pay to have their child put into. Its downright medieval--we are living in the freaking dark ages.[/quote]

Is there any treatment for drug and/or alcohol dependency that anyone here would support? Or do drug and alcohol dependency and associated problems not really exist and therefore not need treatment?

I do not agree at all with Straight tactics, but what is the answer to trying to help people with these dependencies? What would you recommend?

Carmel · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:30:50 AM »

Quote from: ""Guest""

Is there any treatment for drug and/or alcohol dependency that anyone here would support? Or do drug and alcohol dependency and associated problems not really exist and therefore not need treatment?

I do not agree at all with Straight tactics, but what is the answer to trying to help people with these dependencies? What would you recommend?

Firstly, we should define the difference between "needing" treatment, and "wanting" treatment. I think the only part where AA may have got it right is that you have to WANT to get better. Thats across the board for all health issues both mental and physical. A fat person has to want to get into better shape, they cant be forced to do so. A doctor has to have permission to shoot a patient up with any drug to improve their symptoms, he cant just do it...its against the law.

Someone with a drug dependecy has to want to change their lifestyle, and when they do, should be afforded the opportunity to do so through treatment. But what we have with most "treatment", especially when it comes to minors...is a coercive version of the treatment model that just isnt regulated highly enough to be useful at any level. When a kid gets thrown into "treatment" because he smoked a few joints and had a few beers, and is behaving oppositionally because mom and dad are abusive or neglectful or uncle jerry has been groping him late at night when mom and dad arent home....who is it that "needs treatment"? A kid is saddled with the full responsiblity of not only what he is doing to himself, but what others are doing TO him that he may not even be able to distinguish as totally separate.

My point is, there is no system in the system that is used to draw the line between whats the responsibility of the kid and whats just a product of his environment....and frankly, no one gives a damn anyway. When dollars are so easy to scoop out of pockets, why bother with the details of whats REALLY wrong with someone, or what they really need?

This on top of my original point that no one can or should, be forced into anything they dont want, because the sucesss rate for that will always ultimately be zero.

Personally, I dont think the philosophy of the methods are that far off, its when we place the methods into the control of money hungry ignoramuses that everything goes south. Its not wrong to want to excell in life, or to heal wounds or to induce communication within a family...but thats NOT what people are doing with this "treatment".

4Reagan2Youth0 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2007, 01:38:55 PM »

Who needs help and for what is based on simple social beliefs...

People that see me talk to myself might think I'm crazy and need help... They must not know that I am my own best listener and advice giver. Of coarse they don't know, they'd rather pay someone they never meet to listen to them. And take advice from someone that's prolly gay and hates punk rock and Jesus...

Before the days of fast food and mass distributed processed snacks, fat was fancied... Fat meant wealth and success.

I haven?t done any dope in months, but I want to... But I haven?t put out any efforts to score... Does that mean I'm depressed and need help to gain motivation to score some dope?

And when "treating" anything or anyone......what about the results?
Is having a judgmental, hateful and relapse paranoid but retail worthy product better than the pot smoking fun guy/girl that's going to buy me a beer at a rock~n~roll show?

NOT

Anonymous · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:08:20 PM »

Quote from: ""4Reagan2Youth0""

Who needs help and for what is based on simple social beliefs...

People that see me talk to myself might think I'm crazy and need help... They must not know that I am my own best listener and advice giver. Of coarse they don't know, they'd rather pay someone they never meet to listen to them. And take advice from someone that's prolly gay and hates punk rock and Jesus...

Before the days of fast food and mass distributed processed snacks, fat was fancied... Fat meant wealth and success.

I haven?t done any dope in months, but I want to... But I haven?t put out any efforts to score... Does that mean I'm depressed and need help to gain motivation to score some dope?

That's your situation. Not everyone is as self-healing (or self-absorbed) as you are. Some people would at least like a little help or advice to help them through things. This is not utopia, we need help from time to time.

BTW, I wouldn't say you're depressed, perhaps just a homophobic, religious fundamentalist in need of some excercise.

Peace.

And when "treating" anything or anyone......what about the results?
Is having a judgmental, hateful and relapse paranoid but retail worthy product better than the pot smoking fun guy/girl that's going to buy me a beer at a rock~n~roll show?

NOT

Anonymous · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:11:26 PM »

Quote from: ""4Reagan2Youth0""

Who needs help and for what is based on simple social beliefs...

People that see me talk to myself might think I'm crazy and need help... They must not know that I am my own best listener and advice giver. Of coarse they don't know, they'd rather pay someone they never meet to listen to them. And take advice from someone that's prolly gay and hates punk rock and Jesus...

Before the days of fast food and mass distributed processed snacks, fat was fancied... Fat meant wealth and success.

I haven?t done any dope in months, but I want to... But I haven?t put out any efforts to score... Does that mean I'm depressed and need help to gain motivation to score some dope?

And when "treating" anything or anyone......what about the results?
Is having a judgmental, hateful and relapse paranoid but retail worthy product better than the pot smoking fun guy/girl that's going to buy me a beer at a rock~n~roll show?

NOT

That's your situation. Not everyone is as self-healing (or self-absorbed) as you are. Some people would at least like a little help or advice to help them through things. This is not utopia, we need help from time to time.

BTW, I wouldn't say you're depressed, perhaps just a homophobic, religious fundamentalist in need of some excercise.

Peace.

Anonymous · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:24:12 PM »

Quote from: ""Guest""

Quote from: ""4Reagan2Youth0""
Who needs help and for what is based on simple social beliefs...

People that see me talk to myself might think I'm crazy and need help... They must not know that I am my own best listener and advice giver. Of coarse they don't know, they'd rather pay someone they never meet to listen to them. And take advice from someone that's prolly gay and hates punk rock and Jesus...

Before the days of fast food and mass distributed processed snacks, fat was fancied... Fat meant wealth and success.

I haven?t done any dope in months, but I want to... But I haven?t put out any efforts to score... Does that mean I'm depressed and need help to gain motivation to score some dope?

And when "treating" anything or anyone......what about the results?
Is having a judgmental, hateful and relapse paranoid but retail worthy product better than the pot smoking fun guy/girl that's going to buy me a beer at a rock~n~roll show?

NOT

That's your situation. Not everyone is as self-healing (or self-absorbed) as you are. Some people would at least like a little help or advice to help them through things. This is not utopia, we need help from time to time.

BTW, I wouldn't say you're depressed, perhaps just a homophobic, religious fundamentalist in need of some excercise.

Peace.

:rofl: :rofl:

CITIBANK · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:35:29 PM »

Quote from: ""4Reagan2Youth0""

Who needs help and for what is based on simple social beliefs...

People that see me talk to myself might think I'm crazy and need help... They must not know that I am my own best listener and advice giver. Of coarse they don't know, they'd rather pay someone they never meet to listen to them. And take advice from someone that's prolly gay and hates punk rock and Jesus...

Before the days of fast food and mass distributed processed snacks, fat was fancied... Fat meant wealth and success.

I haven?t done any dope in months, but I want to... But I haven?t put out any efforts to score... Does that mean I'm depressed and need help to gain motivation to score some dope?

And when "treating" anything or anyone......what about the results?
Is having a judgmental, hateful and relapse paranoid but retail worthy product better than the pot smoking fun guy/girl that's going to buy me a beer at a rock~n~roll show?

NOT

Good Point RY.. I couldn't agree more..

*jane* · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:06:58 PM »

Quote from: ""Guest""

Whitten defended the proposed contribution as appropriate, considering the county's responsibility to fund operations at the jail. An investment in treatment is cheaper than housing someone at the jail, he said.

"This is an alternative budgeting method in my opinion," he said.

As far as the county's financial struggles, Whitten said a one-time contribution like this is different than funding ongoing costs such as raises and new county employees.

Whitten said he expects the proposed contribution to surface before the council in the near future.

So is this facility going to be mostly full of court-ordered clients? God, have you seen the state of jails in this country for the most part? Not much better than the straights of the world. Ive seen some documentaries on the subject which are sickening. Isolation for extended periods of time, sleep deprivation, physical abuse, fear of being killed, raped, etc etc etc. Can hardly wait for them to get out and integrate back into the society in which I live in. But this is, I think, a slightly different issue than teen drug treatment facilites--will they even be minors?

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