Author Topic: Gatto and Llewellyn  (Read 2480 times)

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Offline Oz girl

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« on: January 31, 2007, 07:26:24 AM »
So i took cassandras advice and checked both of these people out and had a bit of a read of the gatto harpers essay. They have some interesting ideas.

I have met a couple of people who have been home schooled and went to uni with 1 or 2 kids who did the closest Australian thing and went to montessori primary schools and alternative high schools. Most of these people have been engaging, intelligent and I guess the type to march to their own tune. I know the 2 kids i studied with had brilliant minds and did extremely academically well at university. One is now a corporate laywer, the other works in retail part time purely to pay the bills and devotes all other time to playing the saxiphone and surfing. So it did not surprise me when gatto claimed most unschooled kids who applied got into top colleges. I can also see at least one of my own siblings doing better under this system than in the strict boys schools that he always loathed and rebelled against. it is also abundantly clear that 12 years of traditional education did nothing for my spelling skills!

However. i am not sure i can really go in completely for the idea. i am sure that had i been educated in this fashion, I would have not devoted a whole lot of time to learning and figuring out what i liked to study. Given the choice between studying the russian revolution or running around a hockey oval on a crisp autumn afternoon, the hockey would have won out every time. Ditto watching trashy TV versus my french and economics  homework. There were some subjects i fell in love with at school but it was as much because their particular teachers made them come alive for me.

 A fairly strict school system taught me discipline and a work ethic. At the end of the day I liked the social aspect of school and when i got to go into excellerated humanities classes liked the competetive element. Competive and team sports as well as extra curricular activities like theatre prodctions were also an important part of school for me. I think I may have been a little adrift without them.

I also dont know how practical Gatto is when he criticises schools on a marxist level. While most schools are preparing kids to work in a capitalist system, this is because it is the system that we all need to survive in. it is a brave few who get to do what they love and or live comepletely self sufficently. Most of us have to survive in some kind of office or company environment. School does prepare kids for that in a way but having them turn up every week day, dress appropriately etc.

I am interested in hearing the experiences of those who were not educated in a traditional way or chose something closer to gatto and Llewellyn when they educated their own kids.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Antigen

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2007, 10:39:17 PM »
Well, a lot of Gatto's philosophy reminds me of my dad. I did go to school full time, plus organized activities. But I learned a whole lot of useful stuff by haggling over junk bikes and stopping by for stories and sandwiches at the deli where my dad and his friends used to hang out or going on a road trip. You find what you love to do and it's not much like work. You find out what piques your interest and learning more about it isn't a chore. I started out messing around with Wildcat BBS under Desqvue (pre windoze) just for shits and giggles. When the industry came along I was already familiar enough to snag some pin money out of it between chasing kids and stuff.

No Earth shaking accomplishment here. But, like the one kid you mention, I work only as much as I have to to keep me in bubble gum, books and hikin shoes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 12:09:38 AM »
yeah I never thought about that. I have to admit i learnt a lot about wines and grapes that way as well. Even if i did not go for a career in it.
 I guess this is the way universities are structured as well in a way. You pick the subjects that are of most interest and overall study at your own pace.
Perhaps schools should run at a senior level more like universities. Kids go to lectures and tutorials and have a wider choice about subject choice attendence etc. This is prolly a better preparation if they are going to go with further study. if not they will have at least learnt about things that interest them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Antigen

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 01:04:29 AM »
Well, there's that and the fact that university attendance is not coerced. In fact, it's rather exclusive. That doesn't only effect the pool of students they have to work with, it also gives more power the the demand market. Everybody wants to take the good courses; whether they're experientially good (cool professor or easy course) or in demand because the content and certification of completion are more valuable than others.

There's value in the structure, too. Oh, wait! Here's the best answer I can make right here:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... tes#197387
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Oz girl

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 06:39:48 AM »
Oh cassandra. That post was comedy gold!! Particularly the letter to the principal! Ill bet you were the toast of parent teacher night!!!!
Did the rest of your kids decide to go to public school in high school?

I really cant believe they suspended her for that! Thats off the charts nuts :silly: Is this the norm or was your daughters particular school just spastic?
I would say that the issue with your daughters school was not so much that it was structured in a traditional way but that the staff employed and the disciplinary policies fucking retarded! i have no problem with a school with some emphasis on hierachy if those at the top are adults actually worth looking up to. No wonder kids come up with nicknames for their teachers like captain dickface.

I remember in year 9 french class we were supposed to do a magazine collage of a human and name the body parts (only the non sexual ones). So a friend of mine cut out a giant salami and water melons etc and stuck them to the rest of the picture with their anatomically correct names. It was to 14 year olds champagne comedy. The worst the teacher did was a mild "oh very mature ladies" sort of lecture for a minute, eventually gave the girl correct marks for using the right words and got on with the class. i should add this teacher was a conservative older nun in what i had always thought of as a pretty strict school. A more fierce teacher would have given a detention perhaps but this was the worst of it.

I also once had a biology teacher called Ms Horne. Ms horneee claimed her name was pronounced horn but who was she kidding. The poor woman had to teach sex education! Every year the same predictable jokes got trotted out until the woman just used to begin the sex education topic by claiming everyone had 1 shot at a tastless nickname/ joke, the best one got a chocolate frog as a prize and then if after that initial lesson it continued there would be detention to the first girl who dared. Most kids had it out of their system so didnt bother after that.

Zero tolerance is a grave social ill. Whatever happened to meeting kids half way?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 09:02:19 AM »
::cheers:: Ginger. Loved your honesty. Did he relax, or did it create more friction?

Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I really cant believe they suspended her for that! Thats off the charts nuts :silly: Is this the norm or was your daughters particular school just spastic?


It is the norm everywhere, but as with life, you ocassionally do find a teacher who hasn't had the life conditioned out of them, who is in touch with reality, doesn't take things personally, and has a sense of humor. Those gems are unfortuantely rare.
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Offline Antigen

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 02:02:23 PM »
Oh man! I left out one of the best parts. I guess I thought it was in that post, but it wasn't.

The structure. At the time I received that cordial letter from Mr. W My daughter and her bf were in the middle of trying to overturn the school board's capricious decision to switch from block scheduling (4 classes per day w/ a switch of courses at mid term, just like college) to the more common 7 classes per day. The board had done this without even informing, let alone consulting, teachers, parents or students. The teachers found out when they got their Fall schedules late in the year. Some found themselves nearly jobless.

So about the time my letter hit Mr. W's desk, that singular force of nature cleverly disguised as a wide eyed 16yo girl and her bf had gathered signatures on a petition, made the front page of the local paper and were set to deliver the petitions and a short speech at the school board meeting that night. I never did hear a word back about the letter. Mr. W publicly sided w/ the board but privately praised both of the kids. The school board snorted and snuffed and acted all indignant. Mr. W. had his hands full and it was a couple of days from the end of the year. Timing isn't everything, but it is worth consideration.

My kid is getting maybe just a little less guff from the schoolpeople, but not much. She just got suspended again last week for getting her homework out of the car after the bell rang. Started out as suspected possession of a cell phone. But in that particular school district, once they've got a kid in process, they'll find something to stick. It's how they show their love.

That one is tough and well established in her personality. She's sticking it out, though the scheduling change really limits the number of credits she can rack up in the time remaining and she's really just more interested in the social aspect of school anyway. The younger one, now 10, just couldn't stand the environment. They're just mean to kids in that shitty little town. But I'm liing in the next town over which, for some silly reasons owing to small town history and prejudice, just seems to be more in keeping with the philosophy of Fred Rodgers and less like that of Phil McGraw.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Oz girl

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 03:18:33 PM »
Do they have no other penalties for minor transgressions? I like the "suspected posession of a cell phone" Nothing like teaching kids the innocent till proven guilty mentality.
 I think the Australian definition of suspended may be different. The kid is not allowed to go to school for the lenght of the suspension usually a day or 2. It is most commonly for posession of drugs or mouthing off to teachers but the level of rudeness has to be pretty high. Usually involving swearing at them. It is considered a big deal. In private schools it is a step before being expelled. What exactly does suspension mean in the US?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Antigen

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2007, 05:29:02 PM »
Oz Girl, this is the mindset we're dealing with here.

http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/200 ... 15msg0.txt

The press conference is out there somewhere but I haven't been able to find a server that's not already swamped to it's knees. Here's one source
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/01/boston.bombscare/

maybe it'll clear up soon and I can see the press conference. Mean time, here's some somewhat intelligent commentary.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2007, 05:40:37 PM »
looks like an old fashioned hippy asswhomping to me! So I take it then that suspension is the same thing in the US as it is here. The kids does not go to school for a day or 2. The threshold for getting suspended is just much lower.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 05:48:59 PM »
Here looks like a good source.

Clickety click
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Antigen

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Gatto and Llewellyn
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2007, 10:31:40 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
looks like an old fashioned hippy asswhomping to me! So I take it then that suspension is the same thing in the US as it is here. The kids does not go to school for a day or 2. The threshold for getting suspended is just much lower.


Yeah, they'll do that first then require attendance at an alternative school (Family Center around here) during the off days.

Doesn't make much diff to my kid. She doesn't have trouble keeping up w/ homework and class work. And the suspension doesn't effect her grade at all. So it only makes a difference if she's running low on unexcused absences. If she is, then she has to hang out w/ the other chronic homework getters and suspected cell phone posessers at the short bus campus for a day or three.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 01:45:24 AM »
Do NOT, I repeat do NOT push the red button, whatever you do!

http://litebritemooninite.ytmnd.com/'>
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2007, 12:24:14 AM »
Ginger. Your daughters principal so needs to read this article

http://www.theage.com.au/news/education ... ntentSwap2
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen