Indoctrination

[Oz girl]

On the Jesus Camp thread there was a debate raging between the fine line between indoctrination and brainwashing. Ant Questioned whether anyone had the right to indoctrinate their child into a religious faith.

This got me thinking. Isnt all parenting a form of indoctrination. Doesn't everyone do this to their children on some level if not spiritually then socially?
Think about statements like:
Well i am not everybody elses mother
They may do that We do not
In this house we......
Dont play with/eat that darling its yucky
Must you leave the house dressed like that?
There are children starving in (insert 3rd world nation of choice) so i think you can eat your broccoli young lady!

I am interested in peoples thoughts. particularly those who have children

[Deborah]

Yeh, I'm sure some see it that way.
Imagine an infant being like a brand new computer, with a basic operating system, with relatively unlimited potential. Everything that children witnesses, everything said or done to her is like the installation of software. Every person that passes through her life can install a postive/useful or negative/hurtful piece of software. Once installed it can be extremely difficult to remove or replace it.
Look around and find a peaceful, cooperative, confident, passionate child and observe their household. Find an aggressive, obstinant, insecure, subdued or anxious child and observe their household. Their 'programmers' will be very different. Children learn what they live.

Indoctrination is not inherently a bad word, it means to teach. It's how the teaching is done. The problem with programs is that there is little to no genuine teaching (modeling, guiding, setting reasonable limits). Kids are punished until they conform or die.

Brainwashing however, is "a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas".

And, forcible is not always ugly and painful.
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.... Their very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason.
~~C. S. LEWIS (English writer), "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment," God in the Dock, 1970

Related:

http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ault#60716
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ault#32242

[Anonymous]

On the Jesus Camp thread there was a debate raging between the fine line between indoctrination and brainwashing. Ant Questioned whether anyone had the right to indoctrinate their child into a religious faith.

This got me thinking. Isnt all parenting a form of indoctrination. Doesn't everyone do this to their children on some level if not spiritually then socially?
Think about statements like:
Well i am not everybody elses mother
They may do that We do not
In this house we......
Dont play with/eat that darling its yucky
Must you leave the house dressed like that?correction...You will not leave the house dressed like thatThere are children starving in (insert 3rd world nation of choice) so YOU WILL eat your broccoli young lady!

I am interested in peoples thoughts. particularly those who have children

Just a couple of corrections.

[Anonymous]

We are all a product of our environment. No new science there.
Seems like your post claims that child is perfect until it has been molded to fit its surroundings. You could be right, but what difference does it make? No child can live without relying on an elder to provide the tools they need to not only eat, but to reason, discover, and  choose.

The nature of all animals who live in a social environment is to follow the examples set by their elders and their peers. Please define brain-washing and tell me how it might fit into any vague scenario youre trying to lead to.
It is a little irritating to see those who've broken free of examples set for them assume theyve discovered anything more than individuality, and the ability to choose for themselves.  

Your brain is not nearly as complex as you think it is.

[Anonymous]

::fuckoff::  ::fuckoff::  ::fuckoff::

[Deborah]

We are all a product of our environment. No new science there.
Seems like your post claims that child is perfect until it has been molded to fit its surroundings. You could be right, but what difference does it make? No child can live without relying on an elder to provide the tools they need to not only eat, but to reason, discover, and  choose.
The nature of all animals who live in a social environment is to follow the examples set by their elders and their peers. Please define brain-washing and tell me how it might fit into any vague scenario youre trying to lead to.
It is a little irritating to see those who've broken free of examples set for them assume theyve discovered anything more than individuality, and the ability to choose for themselves.  
Your brain is not nearly as complex as you think it is.

Yes, perfect in the sense that children aren't born with inherent prejuduces. They don't inherently hate or fear. That is learned (forced indoctrination=brainwashing).

Given that, it is a disservice to children to brainwash them

*to believe that they aren't worthy of having their needs met
*to believe that other races/classes are inferior
*to believe they are 'special' and therefore exempt from contributing to the household
*to believe they are less than capable, to coddle and micromanage their lives to the point of interfering with healthy development
*to believe they are the source of the family's problems
*to believe that their behavior warrants isolation from the real world, and that punishment/violence/negligence are proper methods of teaching
...for starters.

And it can be complex to change the software (programming). Have you ever known anyone who was attempting to dismantle their religious indoctrination, or to parent their child without violence when they were raised with it, or to act mature and responsible when they haven't been raised to be, or attempting to break out of racial prejudice, or someone attempting to recover from program indoctrination?

[Anonymous]

We are all a product of our environment. No new science there.
Seems like your post claims that child is perfect until it has been molded to fit its surroundings. You could be right, but what difference does it make? No child can live without relying on an elder to provide the tools they need to not only eat, but to reason, discover, and  choose.

The nature of all animals who live in a social environment is to follow the examples set by their elders and their peers. Please define brain-washing and tell me how it might fit into any vague scenario youre trying to lead to.
It is a little irritating to see those who've broken free of examples set for them assume theyve discovered anything more than individuality, and the ability to choose for themselves.  

Your brain is not nearly as complex as you think it is.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You think you do. That's what makes you so pathetic, and funny.  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

We are all a product of our environment. No new science there.
Seems like your post claims that child is perfect until it has been molded to fit its surroundings. You could be right, but what difference does it make? No child can live without relying on an elder to provide the tools they need to not only eat, but to reason, discover, and  choose.

The nature of all animals who live in a social environment is to follow the examples set by their elders and their peers. Please define brain-washing and tell me how it might fit into any vague scenario youre trying to lead to.
It is a little irritating to see those who've broken free of examples set for them assume theyve discovered anything more than individuality, and the ability to choose for themselves.  

Your brain is not nearly as complex as you think it is.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You think you do. That's what makes you so pathetic, and funny.  :rofl:

Classic troll.

[Antigen]

There's a subtle but vital difference between healthy aculturation and indoctrination. We do all brainwash our kids and all the other people and pets within our circle of influence. It is the same basic process but it comes naturally. We don't plan it out and do it on purpose. Kid does something displeasing, our displeasure shows on our faces, in our body language and in the tone of our voices. Then there's the overt layer; we have rules and consequences as noted above and usually passed down through generations. Then there's yet another layer of influence from the communities around us. Same basic routine.

The difference is that we love our children, families and communities. That's what binds us together. We want our kids to be competent and healthy human beings and to get along with the neighbors and such. All our effort with them is focused that way. But when someone sets out to control another for purposes other than their own good; for money, for the love of power, because they have the haughty idea that they know what's good for everyone and can sell the service, then it turns dark and evil. My kid will be my kid till I die and then some. These programs don't have that kind of permanent bond with these kids. They never see and refuse to even acknowledge the harm they do. They just take the money and call it good then sue and harass anyone who says otherwise.

Some things just cannot be bought and sold, raising kids is definitely one of those things.

[Oz girl]

Great post Cassandra! perhaps acculturation is a better word for indoctrination. I actually have no problem with indoctrinating a child with my own ideas as i know my own family did it both ideologically and spiritually with me and I grew up to take the best and ignore the rest.
 
I think the difference between indoctrination/acculturation and brain washing is how familes cope when the kid is old enough to question or reject some of the ideas or ideals that they were raised with or begin to behave in ways which offend the family sensibility.
 The emphasis many programmes place on suppressing sexuality is an example of this. It is unlikey sex is going to land anyone in jail if it is consensual nor does it drive anyone mad. it should not kill you either if you are appropriately educated about the necessary precautions to take. Yet it is easy to see why some parents find the idea of their baby doing this distasteful.   The easy course of action is to "brainwash" a kid into thinking that they are dirty and wrong.

[Anonymous]

Great post Cassandra! perhaps acculturation is a better word for indoctrination. I actually have no problem with indoctrinating a child with my own ideas as i know my own family did it both ideologically and spiritually with me and I grew up to take the best and ignore the rest.
 
I think the difference between indoctrination/acculturation and brain washing is how familes cope when the kid is old enough to question or reject some of the ideas or ideals that they were raised with or begin to behave in ways which offend the family sensibility.
 The emphasis many programmes place on suppressing sexuality is an example of this. It is unlikey sex is going to land anyone in jail if it is consensual nor does it drive anyone mad. it should not kill you either if you are appropriately educated about the necessary precautions to take. Yet it is easy to see why some parents find the idea of their baby doing this distasteful.   The easy course of action is to "brainwash" a kid into thinking that they are dirty and wrong.

Oz "dirty" girl? Hmmmm :wink: