The Drugging of our Children

[Oz girl]

Again with the login issues! :roll:

[Anonymous]

Ritalin works because they were either born doped or had brain damage done to them in very early childhood. It turns on circuitry that should have already been on to begin with. Chocolate-covered espresso beans, as you so laughably posted elsewhere? Guess what, coffee and chocolate are both stimulants, so of course it works! Way to accomplish the exact same thing, although probably less effectively. Maybe there should be a clinical trial done with that versus Ritalin.

Caffeine actually is helpful for many people (including adults of all ages) who have some degree of ADD symptoms. Caffeine is probably the most widely used drug for treating undiagnosed and otherwise untreated ADD in adults. They may not know or believe they have ADD -- they just know that 5 or 6 cups of coffee a day, starting in the morning and continuing well into the afternoon, helps them "stay focused" and "concentrate" and "get things done." I am one of them. And I also know that I can drink a cup of coffee at midnight and still fall asleep a half hour later.

Could I achieve the same thing with other drugs? Sure. But I like my coffee, and my ADD isn't so severe -- I can actually concentrate for more than 10 seconds even without my daily coffee fix.

Drugs have side effects and risks, even moderate doses of caffeine. That's a trade-off some of us are willing to make, in exchange for the kind of life and the kind of school and/or job success we want.

You don't have to prove or disprove anything about ADD/ADHD. All you have to do is try the meds and ask, "is this better or worse than before?" If the answer is "much better than before," then you (or your parents if you are a minor) must evaluate that trade-off between risk and quality of life.

[Deborah]

***Despite its wide use, little is known about how the drug, a chemical cousin of amphetamines, produces its therapeutic effects. Researchers want to unlock the mystery of why the drug has the paradoxical effect of decreasing hyperactive behavior and increasing the ability to focus, even though it is a stimulant, said Barry Waterhouse, the study?s senior author.

From the article you linked to.

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't ya want to know how/why the drug worked and it's negative side-effects before you gave it to your child?
How long have they been prescribing and 'researching' Ritalin?  Three decades? Shouldn't they have some clue by now? Truth is, they still don't know. All the while, Ritalin has become a Lifestyle enhancement drug. It enhances performance, just like Cocaine, therefore people who take it will ferociously defend it. Fine, defend it, use it; but don't delude yourself that it is a miracle drug that "cures" anything.  There are doctors and consumers who firmly believe, based on the fraudulent information they've read, that there are tests to verify ADD/HD- and that Ritalin is the cure. It's just not the case. The unse of amphetamines for "hyperactive" people was an accident. They're still trying to explain 'why' it works. I feel certain it's the bell curve theory I mentioned. If you choose to take them, be sure to have your liver, heart, kidney function checked frequently. Oh, might also want an MRI to see if your brain is shrinking, if that's important.
It's always a trade-off with any drug. One has the freedom to decide if Grades and salary over-ride health, ultimately. Again, the issue for all activists is transparency- Ensuring that the consumer is informed. And ruling out all medical, neurological, environmental factors first.  I think kids deserve that much.

Pls help, Epilepsy is a bonafide neurological disorder, which can't be compared to ADD. I took phenabarbitol and dilantin for a couple of years to control A-typical epilepsy.  What "cured" my mild epileptic attacks was getting out of the city and reducing stress. It was nothing short of miraculous. While away, I learned to better manage stress, not intentionally, but by chance. Back in the city, sometimes extreme distress, I've had 3-4 seizures in 5 years. This after being medication/seizure free for 22 years. I firmly believe they're directly related to stress, and possibly environmental toxins.

[Oz girl]

I would agree with most of what the article you have posted has to say. I dont think any drug can "cure" any medical condition but it can control the symptoms. I also dont like the idea of sticking a kid on a drug and making it a permanent thing. i also accept that the symptoms of epilepsy or some mental illnesses ( i am not suggesting that epliepsy is a mental illness btw. i know it is a nurological disorder) are far more literally definable.
However how do we know whether it is a bonafide condition or not if the medical jury is still out? If in the rare event that all other methods of controlling the symptoms have been tried and have had litle to no effect, putting a kid on medication- which has been prescribed afer considerable discussion with a qualified doctor may be the answer for a few people. I would be more concerned that any random person who is working with kids (teachers coaches etc) seem to have the power to recommend the parent have their kid diagnosed with anything when they have absolutely no medical qualification to make that call. i would be alarmed if a parent asked for my medical opinion when my job is to teach the kid to swim!

[Deborah]

***However how do we know whether it is a bonafide condition or not if the medical jury is still out?

That?s a good question for the APA and all their mouthpieces who preach that it?s genetic/hereditary, brain chemical imbalance, a ?disease?- implying that it is a medical condition supported by science, turns off circuits (never heard that one before), ADDers have smaller brains (when in fact the research participants had already been taking Ritalin prior to the scans). Instead of rumor mongering, they should be up front- we don?t know what the hell causes it, we can't cure it, we can only minimize your symptoms at best, and here are the potential health risks associated with the drugs. So, back to the scans for a moment? why hasn?t anyone bothered to redo that research with ?clean? participants?. Um, I?m guessing they know it will prove nothing, except that Ritalin is capable of shrinking kids brains.

Full disclosure and honesty. Exactly what we ask of programs.  Isolation, torture, humiliation appear to ?work? well for a few, in terms of diminishing the symptoms of ?ODD?, but do the means justify the end? For some, they do. Same with drugs.  I think drugging our kids is a sign of the times and will get much worse before it gets better. It?s been suggested that about 1% (correct me if I?ve misquoted) of kids actually could benefit from some humane residential treatment until stable, might that be about the percentage of kids who may actually need drugs until the ?real? issue can be identified and remedied? That?s my guess.

Thanks to some dear friends of mine, Texas teachers and school districts are no longer allowed to ?practice without a license? by referring kids for drugs. They can not deny a child an education if their parent refuses to drug him/her. A few other states have followed our lead, but it continues in most states.

Parents have options, just as they have options other than programs. They are not as easily accessible or a quick fix, and more times than not, the parent has to change to make any lasting change in an ADD child. A pill a day is unfortunately much easier to manage.

If you don?t use the terms illness/disease, no insurance payments, no special services, no peer sympathy, come to think of it? no drugs. Can?t prescribe drugs without an illness, then you're just a pusher.

[AtomicAnt]

I won't pretend to be an expert on psychiatry, so I consulted my own expert. My ex is a board certified psychiatrist. She seems to be aligned more or less with Deborah's view.

The first thing she said was, "Ritalin is speed."

My ex says ADHD, if it exists at all, is way over diagnosed and often used as an excuse for poor parenting. She says Ritalin is dangerous and the latest long term studies show that  long-term, irreversable changes in the brain (damage) can result from its continued use. ADHD (the APA has dropped ADD), is diagnosed as a subset of Bi-Polar disorder; which means bi-polar must be ruled out before even considering ADHD. She also agrees that no one knows why a stimulant works to calm some people down. They just know it works based on the results.

She does, however, feel that bi-polar disorder is a very real and serious condition. People that really are bi-polar, have a difficult time managing their lives.

[Anonymous]

Texas teachers and school districts are no longer allowed to ?practice without a license? by referring kids for drugs.

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you on this one.

All psychiatric evaluations should be done independently, by an unbiased, independent, qualified professional who is not beholden to anyone, and that person's recommendations should only be advice for the parents. The idea of unqualified people, possibly with their own axes to grind and products to promote, diagnosing children is obscene, and the idea of anyone in government being legally allowed to ram drugs down children's throats is even more obscene and those people need to suffer the eventual fate of the programmies (painful, violent death). Similarly, parents who give Ritalin to their kids with the impression that it's some sort of 'magic quiet pill' need to be smacked upside the head.. with a crowbar.. at 250 mph.

On the other hand, it really does cure the basic condition of not being able to concentrate, as reported first-hand by numerous college students using it.

And still nobody on either side of the fence wants to ask why they're not able to concentrate, as if this is normal among children. "Hyperactive" is a huge misnomer- most laymen think it means "highly active". No no no. We're talking about kids who can't do one thing, even something they like to do, for five minutes straight, kids who have their trains of thought constantly derailed. And there's also plain ADD (although they're calling it something else ---> link), which contains no hyperactivity element at all- they're still being distracted, they're just not reacting to it in the same way. What are, or aren't, these kids getting to make them like this? Biochemical answers only, please.

One side doesn't want to look at the cause of the problem, and the other side doesn't want to admit there might be a problem at all. Lovely.

Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?

[Deborah]

Milk,
You're misrepresenting the side that you say "doesn't want to admit there's a problem at all". I've addressed that a couple of times now and what activists want.
If you think there's a biochemical explanation, go find it and post it. I'm not wasting my time searching for something I know doesn't exist.
While you're researching, see if you can find what conditions stimulate the production of adreneline in children, and the ill effects of long-term over-production of adreneline might have.
Every case is different, there will never be a pat answer for ADD. It's like working a jigsaw puzzle, but there are certainly lists or priorities one would work through in searching for the cause of a childs inattentiveness. Every aspect of the seriously distracted child's life should be evaluated. Starting with an observation of the family dynamics.

PS I think you took my comment literally. Teachers can't diagnose, but they sure were telling parents their kid was ADD and needed medication and the system was backing them, in effect, diagnosing.

[Anonymous]

I'm not wasting my time searching for something I know doesn't exist.

If you're that convinced, why should I waste my time replying to you at all?

I mean I have better things to- ooh, shiny!

[Dr Phil]

This one lady here in california got a prescription for medical cannabis for her son, he was like eight or something, young kid. He had really bad medical problems, seizures and stuff like that, and ADHD. The kid never new he was getting 'pot', and probably too young to be freaked out anyways because he hadn't gone through his drug-fearing brainwashing yet... anyways, she fed him in cookies. His seizures stopped completely and his health got a lot better and calmed down and his diet increase. his doctor thought it was a good idea, his mom, but aparently the dea did not and raided this ladies house and arrested her and charged her with supplying drugs to a youth and all that shit. problem was... she was too open about it. they dont want any activists out there aparently. isnt it weird this govt will raid your house and risk shooting you and your family over and herb but loves the idea of feeding pills to everyone? if adhd is real i support cannabis for kids!  

[Gregg]

Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?

   Sound science you ask???

   Whenever sound scientific principles are applied to the ADHD issue it becomes immediatly clear the this alledged disease doesn't meet even the most basic requirement that every real disease does, so what your are asking for again..

   

Independence, evaluation, and sound science.. is that really so much to ask?

   Is what you are constantly arguing against when that very issue of "sound science" enters this debate  though you did sidestep this dose of "sound science"..

 
According to these experts, Ritalin is more powerful that Cocaine..

http://http://www.slate.com/id/2076413/

Dr. Peter Breggin on Ritalin

http://http://www.breggin.com/congress.html

Table I summarizes many of the most salient adverse effects of all the commonly used stimulant drugs. It is important to note that the Drug Enforcement Administration, and all other drug enforcement agencies worldwide, classify methylphenidate (Ritalin) and amphetamine (Dexedrine and Adderall) in the same Schedule II category as methamphetamine, cocaine, and the most potent opiates and barbiturates. Schedule II includes only those drugs with the very highest potential for addiction and abuse.

[Anonymous]

Don't you read, retard? The Slate article destroys your point.

those who naturally lack an adequate amount of dopamine, such as people diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder,

And Breggin thinks that by mashing all the effects of all the stimulants out there together and listing all the side effects as if they were all equally common, he can convince everyone that Ritalin is the same as cocaine.

That's just fear mongering, pure and simple. The reason the DEA classifies Ritalin with the others is because of drug abuse, not drug use. In this case that means grinding Ritalin up and snorting it, or making an injectable solution out of it, both of which have far more stark effects. Hey, wait, that was in the first link you posted!

Fear mongering, regurgitation or the same tired crap, reference to 'hundreds of studies' without mentioning where they're from... no wonder Congress obviously didn't listen to him.

And, again, nobody wants to even look at the rat brain data. "It's not there if we don't look at it..."

[Anonymous]

You may want to speak to Tony Tommasello at the University Of Maryland about that.. He also stated in the USA Today that Ritalin is virtually identical to Cocaine, he heads the pharmacuetical college there btw..

   Here's a pretty imformative article for you though they are wrong stating that ritalin in normal dosages is not addictive. I clearly recall the original manufacturer stating just the opposite in theor warning pamphlet..

   Anyway, this should help you..

http://http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/issues/ritalin.cfm

ADHD children are typically taken off of Ritalin when they reach adulthood. Interestingly, these individuals seem to be more prone to cocaine addiction. Why is that? Because Ritalin and cocaine are similar drugs, it's possible that ADHD adults are unknowingly using cocaine as a replacement for Ritalin. In other words, it may be an attempt to self-medicate. Cocaine may help individuals with ADHD focus, feel calm and in control.

[Anonymous]

Here's a pretty imformative article for you though they are wrong stating that ritalin in normal dosages is not addictive.

Do you have any idea how stupid that is? If I had about 70 less IQ points and had to resort to your excuse for logic, I could just as easily say "Well, they're dead right when they say that it's not addictive, but they're wrong when they compare it to cocaine."

Even though this is high school chemistry, I think I'm going to fly over everyone's heads here...

The molecules are similar in that they both contain one complete carbon (benzene) ring connected to the rest of the atom, and a similar structure on the other side. Cocaine has an additional oxygen-containing structure separating the two parts of the molecule. In Ritalin, one of the second benzene rings has a carbon molecule replaced by nitrogen; in cocaine, opposite sides of that molecule are connected by nitrogen. Cocaine also has a different 'tail' without the ammonia (CH3) at the end of it. They do contain significant similarities. They perform the same general function as stimulants. They're still not the exact same. Apes and humans have more in common.

Here's some skeletal images that are easier to look at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coca ... eletal.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Methylphenidate.png

But it still gives me an interesting idea. Let's make cocaine in a time-release form akin to the way Ritalin is released now, and do clinical trials on ADHD people with it.

[Anonymous]

Good discussion MGDP. Just one correction -- the CH3 is a methyl group (derived from methane, CH4). Ammonia is NH3. Anyway, if you had this stuff in high school chemistry, you were way ahead of me. I didn't see this until college.

But your point is well taken: Cocaine and Ritalin are chemically related but they are definitely not the same thing, just as methanol and ethanol are related but not the same -- both can make you drunk, but one will also make you permanently blind.

All stimulants are chemically related, including caffeine. They may achieve their effects by different biochemical means, but the end result is the same -- increased levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine. (Some stimulants also affect other neurotransmitters, but that's a secondary effect). The differences in the "high" or how one chemical or another makes a person feel are mostly related to the time required for dopamine levels to increase and the level to which they increase. So in that sense, Ritalin or caffeine might be considered similar to a hypothetical slow-acting form of cocaine, or perhaps a slow-acting form of methamphetamine.

ADHD is not a disease, it is a disorder -- a collection of symptoms, the cause of which is not precisely known. If it is in fact true that ADHD is related to dopamine deficiency, then it makes perfect sense that stimulants would be one way to correct the deficiency. Any stimulant would do that, but some have worse addictive potential and other harmful side-effects. Ritalin or caffeine seem relatively innocuous if they help and if the side effects are tolerable. Cocaine or crystal meth could just as well do the job, but I wouldn't recommend giving either of those to ADD/ADHD sufferers for lots of reasons!