Jesus Camp

[Anonymous]

I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.

Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?

Brainwashing is and remains fucking with someones emotions to make them regress (aka become intensely emotional and not RATIONAL) and the specific methods used do not make it brainwashing or not, its a matter of fucking with emotions and breaking them down.

The VIDEO EVIDENCE of such effects are incontrovertible. No, they dont keep them for years, and no, they are not starved, or cut off from parents, so its not as effective, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a fucking DUCK.

Also, most parents putting a kid in such a place have at least some likelyhood of reinforcing what the "jesus camp"-ers tried to 'instill' into the kids there.

Anyway, there is no justification for what Jesus Camp is doing, and if its not brainwashing, just LIKE it, wtf is it?

[Oz girl]

.

Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?

Also, most parents putting a kid in such a place have at least some likelyhood of reinforcing what the "jesus camp"-ers tried to 'instill' into the kids there.[/quote]

I think that these kids already were "thinking" if you can call it that like this before they were sent to pastor Becky! It is not as if their parents  would be religiously moderate! Afterall the parents were in attendence at the service.
But if these crazy homolies only go for a short amount of time and kids overall feel loved and are well cared while they are at the camp for i dont see how it can be termed abuse as much as religious zealotry. If this is a crime then about 20 million Americans should be in jail!
I would say though that it is highly manipulative of the wider community as well as the kids. When they had the cute little girl handing out religious cards in the Bowling alley, it is not like anyone could really say no to the kid without looking like cruella deville!

[Anonymous]

I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.

Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?

Hahaha?
I'm reading these forums as an RTC survivor and quite frankly that's insulting.
I would really like you to spend a few months at an RTC and after the physical, emotional, and often sexual abuse tell me that this bible camp is within ten billion miles of the area brainwashing RTCs and TBCs are in. I fucking dare you. Do you even have any idea of what you're talking about? AT ALL?

[psy]

I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable. Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties, and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.

Uh, and Jesus Camp (the one we are talking about) did not try to change thought processes, loyalties, and self image?

Hahaha?
I'm reading these forums as an RTC survivor and quite frankly that's insulting.
I would really like you to spend a few months at an RTC and after the physical, emotional, and often sexual abuse tell me that this bible camp is within ten billion miles of the area brainwashing RTCs and TBCs are in. I fucking dare you. Do you even have any idea of what you're talking about? AT ALL?

No he doesn't.  I don't see how "Jesus Camp" relates to the troubled teen industry either.  Sometimes I would like to just love to be able to trap people inside my head so I could force them to live through the memories of things I cant remember.

Bitterness against Christians is as petty as bitterness against any other religion.  There are real problems in the US and it doesn't involve restricting people's practice of religion.

IANAC btw. But prejudice in all it's forms tends to annoy me.

[psy]

I would say though that it is highly manipulative of the wider community as well as the kids. When they had the cute little girl handing out religious cards in the Bowling alley, it is not like anyone could really say no to the kid without looking like cruella deville!

It's as manipulative as any marketing tactic.  But honesly how manipulative is it?  In order for something to be "manipulation" in my mind it would have to be effective.  Most people say "oh gee thanks sweetie" and toss the flier in the nearest trash bin.  Ever handed out fliers?  If you ever do, my advice is: Don't do it near a trash can.  It's really depressing.

[Oz girl]

But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!
if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude. But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!

[Anonymous]

But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!

Oh i don't disagree.  But that is marketing after all.  Without some means of propogation, religions would simply die out.  Christians believe it is their duty to "spread the word / good news / etc".  They are teaching the kid how to "witness" probably becuase she wanted to or asked how to.  I did.  My friends did.  We tought each other how to do it.  We would practice "witnessing" to stuffed animals.  In some christian circles, "witnessing" is a popular thing to do".  It's almost a competitive act.

if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude.

More than likely something rude in my case, but it depends on what is said. If somebody starts off with "you're going to hell for your sins you [insert specific sin here]er" It usually is responded to with gratuitous use of the "F" word.  Sometimes I quote scripture, which really fucks with thier mind.  Other times I pretend to be demon possessed.  That makes em go wild.  Yes you're right.  It is a lot more fun with the grown up preachers.

But let the little girl feel like she's doing something important, like she's learning something.  It's only so long we have as a child, oblivious to the fucked up world around us.  She'll think back on the memories and smile about it.  How much harm is it actually doing anybody?

But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul

And why not.  Kids believe in lies like Santa Claus.  It makes them feel good.  What is the harm in this.  I don't really know personally since in my family, Christmas, was entirely religious in nature.  I was told Santa Claus was a lie.  I didn't mind. I didn't have any faith in him to lose.  I was told, however, never to tell any other children this, since it would upset them.

You may see it as "manipulative" and to the definition of the word you're probably right; however there is no intent to do so.  Seriously.  Who was harmed by those hand-outs.  Maybe the kid was fooled, but do you really want to dunk her head first into the ugly reality of the world?  Let them believe a pleasant lie for a little.

when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!

WOW!  I never thought i'd be defending theses nut-balls.

[Anonymous]

But that is the thing. Practicing any religious faith is a private thing. The idea of selling it and using kids as pawns is pretty distasteful!

Oh i don't disagree.  But that is marketing after all.  Without some means of propogation, religions would simply die out.  Christians believe it is their duty to "spread the word / good news / etc".  They are teaching the kid how to "witness" probably becuase she wanted to or asked how to.  I did.  My friends did.  We tought each other how to do it.  We would practice "witnessing" to stuffed animals.  In some christian circles, "witnessing" is a popular thing to do".  It's almost a competitive act.

if an adult was handing out fliers people would feel free to say not for me thank you or possibly something rude.

More than likely something rude in my case, but it depends on what is said. If somebody starts off with "you're going to hell for your sins you [insert specific sin here]er" It usually is responded to with gratuitous use of the "F" word.  Sometimes I quote scripture, which really fucks with thier mind.  Other times I pretend to be demon possessed.  That makes em go wild.  Yes you're right.  It is a lot more fun with the grown up preachers.

But let the little girl feel like she's doing something important, like she's learning something.  It's only so long we have as a child, oblivious to the fucked up world around us.  She'll think back on the memories and smile about it.  How much harm is it actually doing anybody?

But using a sincere little girl straddles the moral line. Also that kid walked away thinking she has saved a soul

And why not.  Kids believe in lies like Santa Claus.  It makes them feel good.  What is the harm in this.  I don't really know personally since in my family, Christmas, was entirely religious in nature.  I was told Santa Claus was a lie.  I didn't mind. I didn't have any faith in him to lose.  I was told, however, never to tell any other children this, since it would upset them.

You may see it as "manipulative" and to the definition of the word you're probably right; however there is no intent to do so.  Seriously.  Who was harmed by those hand-outs.  Maybe the kid was fooled, but do you really want to dunk her head first into the ugly reality of the world?  Let them believe a pleasant lie for a little.

when really the ugly side of her families faith had been caught on camera. This seems pretty manipulative to me!

Well i don't know about that.  Depending on how you edit video, the shots you choose, the sequencing, etc...  you can be pretty "manipulative" with the choice of edits.  Let's face it. You want to know why this movie was/is sucessful when the WWASP documentary wasn't: sensationalism.
People want their entertainment factor not truth,  they don't want to have to research, and dig up evidence, or even listen to more than a 30 second news clip.  It's not possable to compress such information into such a small space without leaving out things and summarizing.  In order to summarize, one must choose what is or is not important (which is subjective).  Inevitably, in this process, an opinion is expressed.

WOW!  I never thought i'd be defending theses nut-balls.  I do not personally like these bible thumping twats at all, you know that Oz, you've heard my story, but I don't enjoy seeing a group unfairly slammed either.  There are plenty of legitimate things to complain about without distorting their religious practices for maximum entertainment value, such as thier influence in government.

[psy]

oops.  forgot to login.  above post was me.  sorry for the double post.  i thought i hit the edit button but was not logged on and hit the .. oh nevermind.  shouldn't post at 6 am.

[Oz girl]

I have only seen the u tube clips not the whole film, but it actually looks reasonably balanced. i dont think the pastor is portrayed as an evil woman or someone who does not care about the kids, I also dont think   the kids come across as being from "bad" homes. These people seem quite sincere and likable.
It is just that the "holy war" mentality, even if it is a battle for souls and not bodies is so arrogant and hysterical that those who believe in are not afraid to use children as pawns in the battle. Why should religious faith be something that is sold to anyone like a used car? It is a form of emotional blackmail. Particularly when chidren are used.

[AtomicAnt]

I have been away for several days (traveling on business) and only now caught up on this thread.

I'm not sure it is productive to argue about whether Jesus Camp is brainwashing. Define the word brainwashing. How about indoctrination? Is that word better?

I visited my nine-year-old during my trip. Out of the blue he said he still believes in Santa but not God. Okaaay. I try not to impose any particular belief onto him, so I never contradict these statements. I will let him find his own way. He is convinced there must be a Santa because he believes there is no way his Mom would ever get up in the middle of the night for anyone.  :wink:  He's right, of course. I was always Santa. He stated this year will be the true test. If I am not there for Christmas and no presents magically appear over night, then Dad was Santa. If they do, then Santa must exist.

I wanted to respond to some other statements made:

psy writes:

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

I beg to differ on the issue of force. While no one is forcing anyone to become 'born again' they are doing their best to enact laws that force everyone to conform to their values (gay marriage bans, abortion bans, stem cell research bans, etc). If passed, such legislation 'forces' people to comply with these religious values whether they are believers or not. There are still many States that have 'sodomy' laws banning oral sex and I live in a dry county.

psy writes:

So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids. I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse. This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.

But isn't this the crux of the issue with programs? If parents can raise their kids anyway they see fit, does that include sending them to programs? If we are not to question these Jesus Camp teachers, how can we question program parents? Isn't the program doctrine just another wacky belief?

How about abusive cults like this one?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html

Should parents be allowed to raise their kids like that?

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure it is productive to argue about whether Jesus Camp is brainwashing. Define the word brainwashing. How about indoctrination? Is that word better?

I think the question is where does brainwashing end and indoctrination begin?

I'm more or less against both...

[Anonymous]

I've successfully avoided this discussion so far and I don't intend to start now, but there is one thing I can't pass up...

AA, you let your 9-year-old continue to believe in Santa Claus? What the fuck is wrong with you? It looks like he's learning critical thinking skills on his own anyway, but jesus FUCK. Maybe this is because of my dad's adamant refusal to tell me anything but the truth about that (ever, at any age), but I'm absolutely mystified about how you of all people let a 9-year-old (NINE! FUCKING NINE!) continue to believe that.

[Oz girl]

I. He is convinced there must be a Santa because he believes there is no way his Mom would ever get up in the middle of the night for anyone.  :wink:  He's right, of course. I was always Santa. He stated this year will be the true test.

Do you guys not leave beer out for santa & a carrot for rudolph? Everybody knows that this is the true test. Santa has been if he drank the beer and rudolph eats the carrot. He does not have to worry about Drunk driving laws as there is no traffic in the sky!  Duh!
I would argue that people have been subjecting their kids to thousands of years of kooky religious indoctrination and in most cases there has not really been much harm. People either stay with the faith of their childhood or decide it is not for them and either go with another or become athiests or agniostics.
The key difference between these nutty head slapper camps and programmes is that programmes actively discourage parents from raising their kids at all. "Dont question the abuse, untested counselling methods, potential lack of qualifications or recidivism rates- Just trust the programme"
Fundamentalist Chrsitian parents who allow their kids to go to Pastor Becky are not kept in the dark, seemed to actively attend the services with the kids and therefore could see that the kids were well fed and overall happy (except for the tears & hysterics during the nutbar service) Moreover I doubt if the kid said that the scary lady made them cry they would be told they are liars. I am sure that they would say that this is not a bad thing but there is no evidence to suggest that the kid would not be comforted. Also the kids seemed to want to attend the crazy camp.
Where i do agree with Ant is that the religious right are dangerous because of their arrogant need to  crush civil liberites. Abstenence training in schools that are public therefore meant to be spiritually neutral, the general interference with peoples sex lives, the belief that only a christian god should be worshiped. The genreal anti intellectualism! GRRR If i lived in the US i would give em a big bag of Fuck You! But I would be ok with them privately going to their crazy masses as long as they did not require me to go.
Ultimately stupidity & child abuse are not really the same thing.

[psy]

wanted to respond to some other statements made:

psy writes:

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this. Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives". Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to. Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

I beg to differ on the issue of force. While no one is forcing anyone to become 'born again' they are doing their best to enact laws that force everyone to conform to their values (gay marriage bans, abortion bans, stem cell research bans, etc). If passed, such legislation 'forces' people to comply with these religious values whether they are believers or not. There are still many States that have 'sodomy' laws banning oral sex and I live in a dry county.

I agree with you that the republican party uses certain issues to rile up their "base" but I don't think it has anything to do with Jesus Camp (apart for the praying for Bush thing).  Read the last sentence of my post.  I think it's disgusting for the government to interfere in people's private lives; however i think that "private lives" includes religion as well.  I personally find such indoctrination distasteful but i don't think it crosses the line into brainwashing.  It is not like these kids are sleep deprived of starved.  Nobody is using hypnosis / NLP / guided imagery to mess with these kids minds.

psy writes:

So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids. I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse. This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.

But isn't this the crux of the issue with programs? If parents can raise their kids anyway they see fit, does that include sending them to programs? If we are not to question these Jesus Camp teachers, how can we question program parents? Isn't the program doctrine just another wacky belief?

How about abusive cults like this one?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html

Should parents be allowed to raise their kids like that?

No.  Beating kids is out of the question, as is brainwashing or forced labor, however, as i have said, i don't think Jesus Camp qualifies.  Program doctrine is a "Wacky belief" but one is forced to accept it where in Jesus Camp one has a choice.  That is the difference.

Although i don't particularly like the indoctrination they preach, I feel there is no ethical way to forbid it.  As Voltaire said "I detest what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it".