List of Known Abusive Programs

[Anonymous]

It's all about you, Julie.  It always is.

[Lacey]

I dont fucking understand people like you, Julie. Your talking about working to preserve the rights of these kids in treatment.

The right to do what, exactly? Not be treated like a "whore" or a "slut" in treatment? To not be held against their will? To not have their "individuality" controlled?

Let me tell you something, and all of this is from PERSONAL experience. I treated myself FAR worse than ANY treatment center, therapist, or couselor EVER did. And I did go to  schools lists on you alls little abusive watch list. I did things and thought things about myself that I wouldn't wish on y worst fucking enemy. So tell me. Your trying to give kids back their "rights" when all they would do with that freedom is hurt themselves worse.

And I'm not fucking talking about the kids whose parents dont want to put in the effort to really raise a kid and would rather either stick them on some magic pill or send them away... I'm not referring to kids with "academic issues" or "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" or any of those other bullshit excuses that are thrown around WAY too often. And I'll absolutely agree with anyone on here that intitutionalizing a kid for being a pain in the ass is NOT a real solution.

I AM drawing that line between those kind of kids, and the kind of kids like I was.

The problem is, is that your NOT. You are assuming that all kids who end up in these places are just those annoying little kids who need some parents who know how to take responsibility and accountability for their own kids, or need some real "therapy" (whatever you consider that to be.)

You need to carefully consider where it is that you stand when it comes to those kids with REAL problems who ARE putting themselves in very real danger.

Where do YOU draw the line, and what do you think should be done with those kids with real issues, if treatment isn't an acceptable solution?

[Troll Control]

lacey, i think you got julie all wrong.  she's a strong advocate for appropriate placement into appropriate facilities.

she, like you (and me!), believes that "TBS's" and "EG" facilities are complete BS and shouldn't even exist.  on the other hand, she does believe in hospitalization IF the threshhold criteria are met.

i think you two got your wires crossed....

[Anonymous]

And I think Lacey's just another troll. Hard to tell.

Here, let's offer a thought experiment. My fourteen-year-old daughter is exhibiting truly uncontrollable suicidal behiavior. Do I send her to:

1. A psychiatric hospital thoroughly regulated by the state, with plenty of oversight and strict adherence to protocol.

2. Peninsula Village or somesuch.

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

[Anonymous]

I dont fucking understand people like you, Julie. Your talking about working to preserve the rights of these kids in treatment.

The right to do what, exactly? Not be treated like a "whore" or a "slut" in treatment? To not be held against their will? To not have their "individuality" controlled?

Let me tell you something, and all of this is from PERSONAL experience. I treated myself FAR worse than ANY treatment center, therapist, or couselor EVER did. And I did go to  schools lists on you alls little abusive watch list. I did things and thought things about myself that I wouldn't wish on y worst fucking enemy. So tell me. Your trying to give kids back their "rights" when all they would do with that freedom is hurt themselves worse.

And I'm not fucking talking about the kids whose parents dont want to put in the effort to really raise a kid and would rather either stick them on some magic pill or send them away... I'm not referring to kids with "academic issues" or "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" or any of those other bullshit excuses that are thrown around WAY too often. And I'll absolutely agree with anyone on here that intitutionalizing a kid for being a pain in the ass is NOT a real solution.

I AM drawing that line between those kind of kids, and the kind of kids like I was.

The problem is, is that your NOT. You are assuming that all kids who end up in these places are just those annoying little kids who need some parents who know how to take responsibility and accountability for their own kids, or need some real "therapy" (whatever you consider that to be.)

I want you to carefully consider where it is that you stand when it comes to those kids with REAL problems who ARE putting themselves in very real danger.

Where do YOU draw the line, and what do you think should be done with those kids with real issues, if treatment isn't an acceptable solution?

Why not read your statement there a second time...

"what do you do if treatment isnt a solution".

You're advocating brainwashing and torturing them into submission?

[blombro]

Hmm, trying to think of that perfectly self-disrespecting, delinquent, headed for certain death kid, in my experiences.  

Ok, now that I have that picture in my head, yeah you know what they probably would lie, manipulate, do whatever they had to do to gain their freedom, and then fuck up some more.  And frankly, maybe getting abused and tortured finally would have put them down to size.  I call it the "born-again experience".

You tear someone down the point that they have nothing, and then you give them something to fill their soul.  It's the psychological process that occurs in AA, in the born-again Christian experience, and in Scientology.  It is the process of cults.  And in some cases it's damn effective, frankly it can save someone's life.

Call me cruel, but I think I'd rather see someone die or be thrown in jail than be changed like that.  Because that person has to cling to their religion, their identity, their program, they have to believe that it will bring salvation to others.  It's the only way they can maintain the illusion of their new identity, their new cause.

And the only people it truly has a postive impact on are the sociopaths; the manipulators, the liars, and the theives.  But these programs don't cure their sociopathy, they just redirect it.  Instead of acting sociopathic for the self, they become sociopathic for the cause, anything beomes justified to support the cause, even torture.

But wait, what about those kids who are the extreme BPD types.  How does the last two paragraphs apply to them. Not much.  But then I guess my question would be "what exactly is helping them?", "how did you change your way of thinking", "what did make you change your behavior".  If the treatment program (whatever it might be) really helped, then those are questions that should easily be answered.  So to you Lacey, a question, the New Haven RTC, what about it was actually helpful?

[blombro]

As for the "rights" question posed by Lacey.  How's about this for a start:

The right to due process - let them make their case before depriving them of liberty, even if such deprivation is in their best interest.

The right to communicate with advocates

The right to communicate with their parents

The right to be free from torture and abuse

The right to be free from undue physical pain

The right to have their case heard periodically - just because in March it's determined that they're A Danger to Themselves or Others (ADTTOO), doesn't mean that in June they shouldn't have an opportunity to show that they are no longer ADTTOO.

The right to treatment - if they're in a "treatment center", then the goal should be treatment, not detention

The right to a sound education - an education that's consistent to what they would be receiving if they were in their home school district.

I'm sure there are a few I've left out here.

Once you can ensure those rights or at the very least make a noble effort (I realize it's hard finding good teachers these days), then we can talk about the relative merits of one facility to another.  But failing these criteria, or reasonable facsimile thereof, the program should be on the list (finally getting back to the point of this thread).  And please don't tell me how any of these rights are inconsistent with effective treatment (maybe inconsistent with longer treatment durations)  I'm not buying it.

[Anonymous]

Lacey,  these programs are not effective theraputic treatment for ANY kid- whether they are just a pain in the ass or seriously mentally ill and requiring professional help.  

Even a mentally ill, schizo, homicial and suicidal child has rights!  Real basic stuff, like the right to not be abused, the right to be fed properly and to maintain uncensored contact with their parents and whoever, and the right to have an advocate.

[Lacey]

I never said kids shouldnt have those rights. All I'm saying, plain and simple is that not all that bad shit goes on at every treatment center. And the people who have generalized thinking about all schools and think they are ALL wrong are taking away a decent option for parents.

Like ok. Hidden Lake, once again. Totally fits into what all of you are saying. I was there WAYYY to long (23 months)... They exploited everything they could to make that stay as long as possible for their own financial gain... They were completely devoid of any real therapy or conducive environments for any real change to occur. I completely agree. That place should be fucking blinked out of existence. I will never argue with anyone on that.

But what about the 2 places I went before HLA? Walkabout and New Haven? New Haven was 9 months long, and nothing like anything at HLA. Yes, of course there are aspects I would change about any program, because no one is going to get it exactly right. I dont think that they should have restricted my communication with my parents and family. I don't think that the "safety room" (a room with one plexiglass wall that night staff could see into at all times) should have existed. But that place was not a BAD environment. And I did get a bit of a perspective there. There was a staff of caring individuals, I was never restrained for undue cause (the one time I was was when I was sitting there with a knife cutting myself), once you proved they could trust you, you were allowed to venture arond on campus by yourself to have alone time or go play with the various animals (cats, dogs, horses...) that we had, and I did feel like staff cared there. Now if I'd gone right home after that, then I would have said that my experience in treatment wasnt really THAT bad.

However, thats not the way it happened. I went to HLA, and so here I am, sitting on the fence. I don't think all TBS's or RTC's should be shut down simply because of their classification or purpose, but I've also BEEN to an extremely corrupt place, and seen the effects of it on kids, and so I cant sit here and say that I support them completely either.

[blombro]

So let's say this, we agree that we should have nothing but comtempt for the corrupt programs, that only exist to make their owners richer.

What about programs that do actually exist to help kids, where there is absolutely no profit motive involved?

Lacey, your last post reminds me of someone trying to defend an ex-boyfriend who beat her in his brief moments of uncontrolled rage, but bought her flowers and did a bunch of other nice things for her, partly because her next ex-boyfriend drugged and raped her repeatedly.

It sounds to me like there are a number of things about the New Haven RTC that could be fixed as you mentioned.  Frankly, being restrained for trying to cut yourself (depends on the restraint, physically removing you from the cutting device is one thing, putting you in four points is another) seems a bit extreme.  

There are RTC's that are simply out of control and are unsafe because the residents make it that way (Madonna Heights and Lake Grove come to mind here on LI).  There are RTC's that are unsafe because the staff make it that way (any number of the TBS's mentioned here).  So New Haven was safe in that sense, that much I buy.

But equally, the feeling I get is that New Haven as an institution, didn't view you as a fully human being.  Maybe you'll say at that point in your life you didn't deserve that honor.  I disagree.  

I was speaking to a friend of mine who had been placed everywhere in the Long Island area, including being sent away to Kidspeace.  And let's just say that she was misdiagnosed.

For the first six years of her treatment she was labeled a "bad kid", and was sent to places that viewed their residents as "bad kids", then she was correctly diagnosed, and all of a sudden the state started sending her to warm and caring environments.  She was all of a sudden a "good kid" with a mental illness.

I realize there are some kids who really are just that bad, but I haven't met many.  After briefly being a teacher, I can say that even I did my own little mental arithmetic, you label kids without even realizing it.  But it is just this attitude that "these kids are bad", that sets the foundation for all the abuses that occur in all of these facilities, including New Haven.  

Theoretically if you could separate the bad apples from the good ones, and create two treatment modules for each group that would great.  But let's face it, most facilities have a one size fits all model, and most psychologists aren't that smart or clairvoyant to separate the two out.  I would rather take my chances with being lied to and manipulated by the few bad ones, and properly treat the majority who are at their core truly good.

[Anonymous]

Go back and read what I wrote.  The Programs are for no one.  

The following is a list of serious teen problems along with the appropriate placements:


Seriously mentally ill children--imminent danger of violence towards self and others

Appropriate placement is in a traditional mental hospital, or, if it takes longer to stabilize them, in a medical model RTC.

Drug addicted children

Appropriate placement is community based care.

Community based care has the best statistical chance of getting them well--that's based on federal government reviews of results.

Delinquent children

Appropriate placement is state juvenile facilities.

The state must give the kid due process before locking them up.  The state is forbidden from using cruel and unusual punishments.  The child has the right, in state facilities, to send and receive mail from whomever they want--although mail may be read by warden or his staff.  The child has the right to contact advocates and try to get a guardian ad litem appointed to protect his interests if he feels his parents are not.  The child has the right to have said guardian sue in federal court, if necessary, to stop cruel and unusual punishments.  There are limits on sentences to fit whatever the child was convicted of.

Combination children

Appropriate placement is a combination of above.  

Most imminently dangerous problem handled first.  In the case of criminality, the child has a right to mental health care in juvenile facilities and availability of illicit drugs is as limited, if not more, than at Programs.  In the case of combination drug addiction and mental illness, one gets the kid non-suicidal and non-homicidal first and then proceeds to community based care.

Children left who need a residential placement

None.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why I say the Program is for no one.  But I'm repeating myself, and you didn't read it when I laid this all out in the first place.  You just proceeded to jump to conclusions and jump my shit.  Which is your privilege, but because it's a waste of my time to further respond if that's what you choose to do, this is the only reply I will make to you.

Julie

[Anonymous]

Julie, maybe you should wait and see if you would put your own kid in a state run juvenile facility or detention center. See how the rest of the kid's life works out after that. The residential therapeutic schools are a good choice for kids like Lacey who were doing their best to self-destruct but didn't need to be around hardened criminals.
You have such tunnel vision that you just don't get it. There ARE many instances where a good residential program is appropriate and where the kid will be given a chance to mature and work on some issues outside the home. It's really pathetic how judgemental and absolutely wrong you manage to be. This isn't science fiction- it is real parents who care deeply about real kids.  I have a friend who went to prison for a white collar crime. He said to do anything possible to keep your kid out of the system.  He saw young people in for drugs just lose their complete desire for any kind of life while they were in jail.

[Anonymous]

A recap for people new to Fornits who are reading this:

I have bipolar disorder, and my child has pediatric bipolar disorder.  That's one of the two most serious mental illnesses there are.

I know whereof I speak, both from continuing under a doctor's care and staying on top of my medications and my condition, and from having my child fall seriously ill with this life-threatening illness, recognizing it, and getting her appropriate care, continuing under her doctor's care, and staying on top of her medications and her condition.

The only constant in bipolar disorder is change.

She could take a turn for the worse and need hospitalization in a regular hospital, or a medical model RTC, at any time.

So could I.

The criteria for needing inpatient or residential care are the same for both of us.

I also have experience with close family members with bipolar disorder who will not take their meds.  How you deal with it is you continue to try to persuade them, soft pedalling it enough not to do more harm than good, and you watch them in case they become an imminent danger to themselves or others.  Otherwise, you let them alone and hope they come to realize their quality of life will be much better if they see their doc and take their meds.

The reason I have all this experience with bipolar disorder is that it's highly genetic, and people from bipolar families tend to marry people from bipolar families.  This is some unintentional quirk of life.  When my husband and I met and fell in love we did not know we were both from bipolar families.  We found out later.  But us both being from bipolar families means that we see a lot of it, both when it's treated appropriately, when treatment is resisted, and when the best available treatment isn't enough to keep a specific patient stable.

This situation--bipolar disorder running through our whole extended family--is why all of us are so intimately concerned with safe, effective, humane, and dignified treatment for people with serious mental illnesses.

Julie

[blombro]

Juvie vs. RTC:  From someone who avoided both, but not by much.

What got me into the system was I tried to "blow up" my school using pressurized methane (from sci-lab gas jets) and trash fires.  That and some other arson.  I was the kid who might have tortured animals if I had one.

I also had Persistent Developmental Disoder (PDD) or what I call Mild Asperger's.  I was angry, isolated, and in my own little world.  I wasn't able to even comprehend how the actions that I was taken could effect others (inability to empathize, both consistent with Asperger's and anti-soical personality disorder), guess what, one of these is a "good-kid" disorder, the other a "bad-kid" disorder.

Now, I committed a pretty serious crime, so I don't sit here and say I had my rights violated.  If I had been placed in a JDC, I suppose that would have been just as appropriate.  However, such placement could have very well destroyed my life.

Instead, I was placed in a psych ward for psychiatric evaluation (no prior history of criminal behavior helped) and then transfered to a psychiatric hospital, but in reality it was a state-run RTF.

I was misdiagnosed with A-SPD or the childhood eqivalent, and was viewed as a "bad kid" for the next few months.  I would have been sent to Kidspeace but for the fact that halfway through my treatment, I was placed with a new treatment team, who correctly diagnosed my condition.

Placement in either juvenile detention or an RTC wouldn't have helped.  Frankly the only thing that did help was the fact that I was away from home for so long, that I was able to realize how serious what I had done, and I committed myself to not getting in trouble again.  Being on an anti-depressant, and not dealing with the pressure of having to be perfect probably helped some too.

My point is it's not so much what we call the facility, it's what happens inside the facility.  Depending on the conditions a JDC lockup can be just as bad or worse than a for-profit TBS.  Honestly, when you're 14, all of these places are prisons, but some are worse than others.

[Anonymous]

I have a friend who went to prison for a white collar crime. He said to do anything possible to keep your kid out of the system.  He saw young people in for drugs just lose their complete desire for any kind of life while they were in jail.

Prisons do not have a very high success rate at rehabiliation. Recidivism among those who serve their time and return to society is quite high. Those who do manage to avoid returning to prison often find their biggest motivation to stay straight is "fear of getting sent back to prison," not any sort of therapy, rehab or personal insight they learned while in prison.

The above statements also apply to RTC/TBS behavior mod programs for juveniles. Just substitute "RTC/TBS" for "prison" in the above paragraph.

The juvenile justice system in many states is quite different from the adult system. The primary motivation of the juvenile court and its officers is to rehabilitate juvenile delinquents before they become adult offenders. For most offenses, the juvenile's record can be expunged once he or she turns 18 if he or she has fulfilled the terms of the court's adjudication. The "therapy" may or may not be the best, but some kids are in fact rehabilitated. Again, the same statements apply to RTC/TBS. The biggest difference is that the juvenile court-mandated facilities have government oversight, regulation and accountability. Private RTC/TBS have none, so the potential for abuse or "therapy" that does more harm than good is much higher in the private facilities.

There are states, like Florida, where the juvenile justice system has contracted out some of its adjudication to private companies -- the same types of companies that run abusive for-profit programs. Those are the states in which the juvenile justice system should be avoided.