Author Topic: Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs  (Read 12311 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2006, 09:57:08 AM »
I'm not real thriled with the idea of OB connected with adjudicated youth - the only instance of "captive" participants.  HOWEVER, what they offer may - just may - be better than alternatives for the subject youth, and even may be an alternative to some other confinement.  In other words, even in the adjudicated programs the kids may have some choice.  [As a side note, at least one for-profit company running a good wilderness program (yes, there are some good ones -but lets not debate that now) and serving adjudicatedyouth, keeps the adjudicated kids separate and won't keep the most difficult ones - returning them to the sheriff/whoever, so there is still an option for the kid.]

The other point -- even the OB programs for "troubled" teens are not intended for what might be called "hard core" "troubled teens".  Rather, they are better for providing a break and chance for reflection for kids without such entrenched behaviors - "early" intervention, if you will.  AND, the programs do require participant consent, anthough not necessarily enthusiastic eagerness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2006, 10:36:54 AM »
Barbe Stampe did promote Outward Bound, based on it being a "voluntary program."
It appears that Barbe Stampe did remove her "advertisement and support of Outward Bound."  That is what anyone would do after the death of this 16 year old girl in the Outward Bound Program.

BUT, the OP's suggestion, accusation that Barbe Stampe had anythng to do with these recent tragic deaths of these too people in these Utah programs is absolutely absurd.

The 28 year old guy enrolled himself into this survival course.
The 16 year old girl, Elisa, WON THE TRIP to Outward Bound through her school.  NEITHER was referred by anyone.

And yes, TSW is correct.
The likes of Isabelle at CAICA will continue to be highly criticized for supporting the likes of Sue Scheff /PUREwho makes big money referring children into abusive programs.

Falsely accusing Barbe Stampes of referring these two people into a program where they died is just wrong..
Then filling such a posting with personal unsubstaintiated remarks like "is it MRS. or MS?" is immature, vicious, uncalled-for and speaks volumes about the OP poster's small-mindedness and need to hurt Barbe Stamps.
It is obvious who this OP poster is, now isn't it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2006, 10:48:29 AM »
And IZZY get this:
The guy who died in the Utah survival program was NOT A KID...he was 29 years old.  That's a MAN in anyone's book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Obsessions
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2006, 11:24:56 AM »
No wonder you never move forward, your all so obsessed with the little problems and and you hatreds toward them to not see the bigger picture. Barbe maybe made a mistake, guess shes is allowed. Your obsession is so non productive, but I get see you get a high from it. Keep bashing Izzy, Sue, Pure, it is is really getting you somewhere.  Oh, while you do that, WWASPS has about 20 new programs now, and how many new marketing agencies?   :idea:  :oops:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2006, 11:32:55 AM »
No one is obsessed or gets a high from pointing out that Izzy, CAICA supports Sue Scheff /PURE who refers children to abusive programs for money.
That is one of the main purposes of fornits, to make the public aware of abusive programs, and people who support abusive programs.
One would THINK that would be the main purpose of anyone calliing themself an ADVOCATE--to warn the public against anyone who sells children into abusive programs for financial gain.

People who read/post on fornits are very concerned and informed about WWASP, and do not need the likes of YOU to keep us so informed, thank you very much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2006, 11:36:54 AM »
I'm curious as to what those 20 new programs are. Links please?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2006, 11:49:43 AM »
Just a point of clarification. Two kids died in OB
Dillon Peak, 14, at Peace River Outward Bound Camp Florida
Elisa Santry, 16, at Outward Bound Wilderness   Utah

Peak was not voluntary, Santry was.
I'd still be curious to know who sold Santry on the idea that attending OB would help her overcome her shyness and build relationships. In fact, she was "bullied" by other participants.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... try#208394

Dave Buschow, 29, at Boulder Outdoor Survival School was also voluntary, but was denied adequate food and water as part of the "survival training".

In addition to Santry and Buschow, there was another death the same day in S Dakota where temps were 100+. An adult, not enrolled in any program or school.

In southwestern South Dakota, a woman hiking on a short but steep Badlands trail died Sunday, when the temperature was well over 100 degrees.
Other hikers found the body of Joan Kovach, 52, of Canfield, Ohio, Chief Ranger Mark Gorman said.
``Where she eventually gave in, her water bottles were empty and unfortunately she just did not have enough water for the conditions,'' Gorman said. He said people hiking in the park during extreme heat should carry at least a gallon of water.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/stor ... 54,00.html
http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regi ... 546192.php
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2006, 12:03:10 PM »
Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.

the bottom line that ppl don't get here is that what you do is getting old. you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl. it will all come out in the end. in the meantime there are tons of wwasp programs opening just maybe not listed under wwasp. but it appears lichfiled is stil behind them all.

ivy ridge supposedly withdrew from being part of wwasp so did spring creek. luckily the new $100 MILLION lawuit includes Lichfield. none of them want to look lliek they are part of wwasp but there is plenty of evidence out there that shows they are.

as everyone sits here pissing and moaning about Scheff and the tiny whitmore which is closed wwasp continued to grow. that's where ppl need to start putting their focus and attnetion. they're not the only ones. ther are other huge corproations jumpin on the bandwagon becuase they see the money to be made in the troubled teen and child industry.

And about Barbe - she isn't responsible for killing those two kids any more than Scheff is responsible what happened at the Whtimore - and like i said the truth will come out i'm sure during the trial.

rmemeber no matter how much we don't want programs and kids sent to programs its not real to htink they will all be shut down so we'd better figure out a way to get a better system in place and alert parents to be careful where ther kids go. they do have a say when their kid gets in trouble and is in the system. usually. so they should do theyr homewrok.

and ya other ppl died in utah from heat - so what - elisa shoudl have been supervised and not left alone for 10 hours to die in the heat. dillon should have been given antibiotics when they knew he had strep throat instead of throwing him back in his tent. they should have notified his mom. elisa's mom was talked into sending her there by some counselor who was working on the scholarship. who knows why they thought it would help her shyness but from what i read it was elisa who thought it woudl so that must be how the program is being sold to them.

Outward bound was very negligent in both Dillon's and Elisa's deaths.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2006, 12:09:27 PM »
Deborah, it was Summer Search who awarded the scholarship to Elisa Santry.  Here is a link to their org. which apparently partners with schools in certain parts of the country like Elisa's in Boston.

http://www.summersearch.org/s.php

The program where Dillon Peak died is for low risk adjudicated youth. It is part of the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice. It is not a volunteer adventure program, you are correct.  He was placed there by the court.  Autopsy reports are still pending but there is considerable controversy surrounding who is at fault for his death (OB for not providing better care or the hospital who treated him for strep throat and released him).   His family doctors believe he died as a result of sustaining a rare type of encephalitis on top of the strep throat.

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/ ... 06&story=t
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2006, 12:11:32 PM »
Sue Scheff does hold a great amount of responsibilty to the children abused at Whitmore Academy:
Sue Scheff/PURE continued to refer children to Whitmore Academy AFTER the investigation of child abuse against the Sudweeks began in November 2004.
Sue Scheff continued to support the Sudweeks after Cheryl Sudweeks was CHARGED with criminal child abuse.
The poster may consider Whitmore to be "tiny" but the 4 children Cherly Sudweeks is charged with abusing, and who are facing a criminal trial may disagree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2006, 12:17:30 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.

the bottom line that ppl don't get here is that what you do is getting old. you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl. it will all come out in the end. in the meantime there are tons of wwasp programs opening just maybe not listed under wwasp. but it appears lichfiled is stil behind them all.

ivy ridge supposedly withdrew from being part of wwasp so did spring creek. luckily the new $100 MILLION lawuit includes Lichfield. none of them want to look lliek they are part of wwasp but there is plenty of evidence out there that shows they are.

as everyone sits here pissing and moaning about Scheff and the tiny whitmore which is closed wwasp continued to grow. that's where ppl need to start putting their focus and attnetion. they're not the only ones. ther are other huge corproations jumpin on the bandwagon becuase they see the money to be made in the troubled teen and child industry.

And about Barbe - she isn't responsible for killing those two kids any more than Scheff is responsible what happened at the Whtimore - and like i said the truth will come out i'm sure during the trial.

rmemeber no matter how much we don't want programs and kids sent to programs its not real to htink they will all be shut down so we'd better figure out a way to get a better system in place and alert parents to be careful where ther kids go. they do have a say when their kid gets in trouble and is in the system. usually. so they should do theyr homewrok.

and ya other ppl died in utah from heat - so what - elisa shoudl have been supervised and not left alone for 10 hours to die in the heat. dillon should have been given antibiotics when they knew he had strep throat instead of throwing him back in his tent. they should have notified his mom. elisa's mom was talked into sending her there by some counselor who was working on the scholarship. who knows why they thought it would help her shyness but from what i read it was elisa who thought it woudl so that must be how the program is being sold to them.

Outward bound was very negligent in both Dillon's and Elisa's deaths.


Like someone asked before, why is it okay for any kid to be abused or parents defrauded?  So what if Whitmore isn't as big as WWASPS.  That's not the issue.  They had 40 something kids, didn't they?  Many of whom were referred for profit by PURE?  Parents have alleged the Whitmore program sold to them was not the program they got.  Just like WWASPS parents.  Also, what about the allegations that PURE continued to refer to Whitmore during the criminal investigation?  Is that true?  If so, why?  Doesn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution?  Put referrals on hold until the matter was resolved one way or another?

Your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense in light of these issues.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2006, 12:47:44 PM »
***Seems Outward Bound doesn't fall under the Utah's regulations that kids can't hike in temps over 110 or alone because they are voluntary. so voluntary isn't always good, especially not in this situation.

I agree. And if you had read my posts in the other thread you?d know that. Further, my mention of other deaths was not intended to excuse what happened to Santry and Peak. Both deaths were avoidable, imo. You?re making some wrong assumptions if your comments were directed to me.

***you really don't have your facts straight and you twist and turn the truth so as to mislead ppl.

Who and what, specifically are you referring to?

Suggesting that people drop everything and put their entire focus on WWASPS is about as realistic as believing that the industry will be shut down or that Federal regulations will ensure that kids in programs will not continue to be abused, drugged, or killed. I understand your urgency, but people will focus on what is most important to them at any given moment.

BTW, ?everyone? is not sitting her pissing and moaning about Scheff.  Direct your comments to those who you feel are.

What are you doing to stop WWASPS?  What might a ?system to alert parents? look like? Just curious about what scathingly brilliant actions you think others should be taking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2006, 12:51:01 PM »
To add some perspective here, it seems to me the risk in any kind of outdoor activity must be taken into account by children and adults who participate in them.  No organization is immune to accidents caused by human error or negligence.  Does that mean we should ban them?  Get rid of the Boy and Girl Scouts?  Outward Bound?  How about Catherine Freer Wilderness?  A boy died there after a tree branch fell on him.  Ruled an accident but common sense seems to dictate you don't set up a tent under a big tree covered with SNOW.  CFW is touted as one of the safest wilderenss therapy programs and plenty of ed cons refer parents to them I would imagine.  A young girl also died in one of their programs, Erica Harvey.  Forced wilderness therapy programs are a bad idea, IMO.  Kids have no options in the middle of nowhere and when they have died, no one is ever held accountable, except in civil court.   The penalities just aren't severe enough, IMO.

Out of curiousity, I searched for any reports of fatalities and serious injuries in Boy Scout programs.  Not sure about other camps, or OB, but I think I did read somewhere they had never had a child die from heat stroke or dehydration in 45 years.  Well, there is always a first time and tragically, it looks like that may be what happened with Elisa Santry.

Boy ScoutsYour search for ACCIDENTS AND SAFETY in Boy Scouts returned 10 articles

ARTICLES ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS
Page: 1 Newest First | Oldest First | Closest Match  4 Scouting Deaths Are Ruled Accident
RICHMOND, Va., Jan. 7 (AP) - The electrocution deaths of four Boy Scout leaders at the National Scout Jamboree last summer were found to be accidental, an Army spokesman said Friday.

January 8, 2006 News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Questions Remain as Scouts Try to Deal With Four Deaths
By FELICITY BARRINGER
Officials in Virginia began investigating how electricity from a live power line killed four leaders of a Boy Scout troop.

July 27, 2005 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: ELECTRIC LIGHT AND POWER, ELECTROCUTIONS, BUSH, GEORGE W, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, VIRGINIA, FORT ASHBY (W VA), WASHINGTON (STATE), ALASKA Electrical Accident Kills 4 Boy Scout Leaders in Virginia
By MICHELLE O'DONNELL; MICHELLE O'DONNELL REPORTED FROM NEW YORK FOR THIS ARTICLE, and LISA BACON FROM FORT A.P. HILL, VA.
Four volunteer Boy Scout leaders from Alaska were accidentally electrocuted as they set up camp on the first day of the scouts' national jamboree.

July 26, 2005 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: FORT A P HILL (VA), ELECTROCUTIONS, VIRGINIA, ALASKA Bad Weather Delays Search For Boy Scout
By ANN FARMER
The search for the body of a Boy Scout from Staten Island who fell off a boat during a whale-watching expedition off Cape May, N.J., was postponed yesterday after eight-foot swells made conditions dangerous, officials said.

May 2, 2005 New York and Region News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: RESCUES, WHALES AND WHALING, CHILDREN AND YOUTH, BOATS AND BOATING, JOHS, NICHOLAS, CAPE MAY POINT (NJ), NEW JERSEY, STATEN ISLAND (NYC) METRO NEWS BRIEFS: NEW YORK; Boy Scout Is Wounded On a Camping Trip
Stephen Schuster, 13-year-old Boy Scout, is struck in side by stray bullet while on weekend camping trip in Old Bethpage Restoration Village Park on Long Island; police speculate that bullet came from nearby rifle range

May 4, 1998 New York and Region News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: FIREARMS, SCHUSTER, STEPHEN, OLD BETHPAGE RESTORATION VILLAGE PARK EARNING IT;Doing Good May Be No Shield When Bad Happens
By DEBRA NUSSBAUM
IN Richmond, a man who was a volunteer with the Red Cross drove a woman to a medical appointment. In Oregon, two men accompanied a Boy Scout troop on a camping trip. Though the three men were unpaid workers, giving their time for what they considered good causes, they were all eventually sued after someone in their care was injured in an accident. The suit against the Red Cross volunteer was dismissed. But a jury in Portland, Ore., ruled that the Scout leaders, Howard J. Ryburn and Craig A. Nordling, were negligent when a boy was paralyzed during a touch football game on the 1991 camping trip, and the two men were hit with a $7 million judgment in 1994. Though the Boy Scouts and its insurance paid the judgment and the legal costs for both men, Mr. Ryburn, who is 28, said he would not be a volunteer for a while.

May 19, 1996 Business News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: SUITS AND LITIGATION, VOLUNTEERS, NORDLING, CRAIG A, RYBURN, HOWARD J, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICABear Mauls 2 More Scouts
AP
Officials at a Boy Scout ranch are tightening security after five bear attacks in two weeks, including weekend incidents in which two boys were mauled. In the latest incidents, 14-year-old Kevin Unruh of Salina, Kan., and Joey McKinney, 13, of Danville, Ark., were attacked by a black bear early Sunday while camping seven miles from the headquarters of the Philmont Scout Ranch, a 215-square-mile Boy Scout camp that draws scouts from around the country. Officials killed the bear.

July 30, 1986 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: BEARS, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, CIMARRON (NM)Sourly, the Poles Offer Blankets to New York
AP
Poland, irked that an American donation of powdered milk carries the condition that it must be distributed by non-Government agencies, said today that it would give 5,000 blankets and sleeping bags to the homeless of New York City - and insist on the same condition. In response, Mayor Koch said blankets and sleeping bags were not needed, especially to make a political point, and suggested they be donated to the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts instead. Jerzy Urban, the Polish Government's chief spokesman, said Poland would require that the blankets be distributed by private charities rather than by American Government officials.

May 14, 1986 World News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: SLEEPING BAGS, RADIATION, GIFTS, ATOMIC ENERGY, MILK, CHERNOBYL NUCLEAR POWER PLANT (USSR), DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES, FIRES AND FIREMEN, HOMELESS PERSONS, EXPLOSIONS, POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT, GRAPHITE, ELECTRIC LIGHT AND POWER, BLANKETS, FOOD CONTAMINATION AND POISONING, KOCH, EDWARD I, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, GIRL SCOUTS, NEW YORK CITYHiking Scout Falls to Death
UPI
Henry J. Herrman, a 16-year-old Boy Scout from Red Lion, Pa., slipped on a ledge while hiking on the Philmont Scout Ranch and fell 70 feet to his death, officials said.

July 1, 1985 U.S. News
MORE ON BOY SCOUTS AND: HERRMAN, HENRY J, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, PENNSYLVANIA

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference ... atch=exact
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2006, 01:14:01 PM »
More Recent:

Bear killed after biting Boy Scout in Utah scout camp
By The Associated Press - 07/22/06
SPRINGVILLE, Utah (AP) ? A black bear that bit the arm of a sleeping Boy Scout through the wall of his tent was killed when it returned to the camp later in the day and showed no sign of fear of humans, authorities say.

Colton Stewart, 14, of Spanish Fork was awakened early Wednesday at the Adventure Park Scout Camp near Springville in central Utah by a burning sensation in his upper arm.

He realized that burning was a black bear slowly biting down on his arm through the tent. He pulled away and heard the bear run through the brush and into the night.

??It wasn?t biting viciously. They put their mouth on things to see what they taste like,?? said Anis Aoude, regional wildlife manager for the state Division of Wildlife Resources. ??In this case there just happened to be a kid?s arm on the other side of the tent.??

The bite was not serious and did not require medical attention. However, camp officials notified the state, which sent a game warden to the scene.

That evening, as barbecued ribs were being prepared for the 90 Scouts, the 2- to 3-year-old female bear wandered back into the area, DWR Central Region Supervisor John Fairchild said.

??It wasn?t afraid of anybody,?? Fairchild said. ??It paralleled the camp, and the conservation officer waited for the bear to get away from the people in a safe area before he shot it. ...

??We had to put the bear down because it lost its fear of humans and has become habituated to eating human food,?? Aoude said.

Fairchild said the officer assembled the Scouts after the incident and explained why the animal had to be killed.

---------------

Jeez, did they have to kill the bear so we, mankind, could take over their natural habitat?  Drugging kids into forced compliance is bad enough but what does this say about a society that socializes bears and then kills them when they wander into our "society"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »