Two Hikers die on WIlderness Hikes in Utah

[Bunnie]

I agree with Joyce, it must be horrible for his family, to know people who had the sources to save his life and deny the life giveing substance of water, is a double whammy.
The problem with Utah they see this all too much, and don't charge the companys or employees with any criminal charge.
Now why would they want to do that when it could stir up a hornets nest for all those greedy program owners, and other businesses who are going to lose out on the $$$.

[Anonymous]

BOSS officials refused to answer our questions,  :roll: but because of the incident, the school's permit for using federal land was partially suspended by the U.S. Forest Service. To get it back, the Forest Service said the survival school must change its course policy to include, among others things, that students carry water in a 32 ounce bottle. CNN has learned from Forest Service officials that the school will change its survival course policy.
CNN Video
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... .death.cnn

The 29-year-old former River Vale resident's death on July 17, 2006, has touched off a wave of criticism and sparked a federal lawsuit against the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS), which organized the hike and the 28-day course of which it was part.
Dr. Paul Auerbach, founder of the Wilderness Medical Society and a professor of surgery at Stanford University Medical Center in California, also criticized hike leaders' actions.
"There is risk in the wilderness, for sure, but there was no risk whatsoever to this man's companions had they chosen to do the proper thing and try to save his life with cooling, rest and water," Auerbach wrote in a posting on rememberdave.net, a Web site set up in the aftermath of Buschow's death.
BOSS, which charges more than $3,000 for the course, has denied any responsibility, saying that Buschow, an Air Force veteran, did not read its manuals and may not have communicated important medical information before embarking on the strenuous trip. Officials said Buschow had also signed liability waivers.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," BOSS asserts in a lawsuit filed in January that asks a judge to validate Buschow's signed liability waivers.
Brook Millard, the family's attorney in its lawsuit, said it could take 18 months before the case would be ready for trial.
"I believe the actions taken by BOSS and its employees were outlandish and that his death was absolutely caused by their neglect and their intentional withholding of water," Millard said.~~

A lawyer for the school said Friday he had not seen the lawsuit and could not comment.
BOSS filed a lawsuit in the same court in January, asking a judge to uphold liability waivers signed by Buschow when he applied for the course. There has been no progress in that case.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," the school's lawsuit said.
The U.S. Forest Service, citing Buschow's death, partially suspended the school's use of Dixie National Forest until the school got advice on providing food and water.
The agency lifted the suspension May 25 after the school filed a plan that allows the bottle for "obtaining and transporting water" during the early phase of the field course and two bottles during later stages.~~

Correct and more humane steps are being taken.
Based on previous cases, not sure how smart it was to go after BOSS and not the guide. We'll see how it comes down.

Most of the news stories point at that BOSS refused to answer questions because this is currently in litigation.  That's normal.

It also shows a willingness on their part to seek advice on how to reduce the risk and make adjustments to further reduce the likelihood of a similar accident.

[Bunnie]

An Accident, is when you slip and fall, ect.
Hey Hiker Dave, you could sign up to drag kids around in the desert and with-hold food and water, all for minimum wage.

[Deborah]

Also Deborah you know damn well I was talking about BOSS and the 28 year old, and not the kids. This discussion hasn't been about the kids for me yet. Despite your repeated attempts to link the two.

Actually, there is a direct connection between BOSS and youth wilderness that I'd forgotten about........

After leaving school, Cartisano decided to launch his own commercial wilderness-therapy school. Toward that end he hired Doug Nelson--who had directed the BYU wilderness programs for many years and founded the Boulder Outdoor Survival School--as a consultant. "Steve told me he was going to charge $9,000 for a two-month course," Nelson recalls. "At the time, most commercial programs were charging something like $500 for a 30-day experience, and I told Steve there was no way anyone was going to pay that kind of money."

http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html

And more detail in an earlier post in this thread
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 404#208404

[Anonymous]

An Accident, is when you slip and fall, ect.
Hey Hiker Dave, you could sign up to drag kids around in the desert and with-hold food and water, all for minimum wage.

Kids?  average age of someone in this course is mid-twenties.  Under 18 is not allowed.

You need to look up the definition of accident.

No need for personal attacks.  I"m not making any.  It's amazing how in the course of discussing opinion, name calling and personal attacks ensue rather than just discussing the topic.

The reason I first posted to this forum is that Deborah referenced me.

You don't have to agree with me and I'm fine with that.  I'm just trying to add some perspective to the conversation.  Situations like this are never so cut and dry that one can read a news story and understand completely what happened out there.

So much of the comments made are based on speculation about who knew what or did what and how it happened, etc.  Fact is, we don't know the situation.

It's keeps being repeated that if he asked for water why wasn't he given it.  Here's another thing to think about.  As it's also stated, the students were unaware that the instructor carried emergency water.  I never knew the instructor had emergency water on my trip.

So now I'll speculate that perhaps the conversation was -- i'm thirsty, when will we find more water....and the answer may have been pretty soon.  Who knows...speculation doesn't really help draw a conclusion.  Speculating and then arguing based on the speculation is pointless.

Anyway, this'll be my last post on the topic.  Hopefully, the discussion gets a little friendlier and more productive

[Anonymous]

Hiker Dan, the POINT IS--the instructors KNEW they had water.

[Anonymous]

Why are you not so clearcut with your own choices in the program then? I read your blog and you suggest you as a staff are a victim of the program as well, as an adult, who could of walked out at any time. This does not mesh with your hardened stance on personal responsibility showed here,

 :exclaim:  :exclaim:

[Anonymous]

4.  This was an unfortunate accident cause by a mis-diagnosis by an individual.



Here is ONE of the biggest issues in the industry.  Does the person who "mis-diagnosed" the  young man have the proper creditials, training &/or skills to be "diagnosing" medical issues?  Was that person a Doctor, Nurse or EMT?  There a far to many "accidents" in Wilderness Programs.  Mostly because the "experts" are only "experts" by industry standards.   Obviously, this guy was showing signs of trouble and the person who gave the "diagnosis" did not understand the obvious signs of dehydration.

[Deborah]

Staff are defendants in the lawsuit.

BOSS
Shawn O'Neal
Jonathan Williams
Steven Dessinger
Jeff Sanders

Garfield Co
Judge Tena Campbell
Case #  2:2007cv00298
Utah District Court- Salt Lake City
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court- ... _id-61597/

Perhaps that will be addressed. He was clearly exhibiting signs of severe dehydration, including seeing in 'black and white' according to his mother's statement on the CNN video. If the 'novice' participants recognized he was in a life-threatening condition, certainly one of the 4 'trained/experienced' staff should've noticed.

[Anonymous]

I was wondering why they've got a troll on this board trying to defend them.

Darwin and adult stupidity aside, because there were supposedly trained, experienced instructors there, who would logically be required to recognize dehydration, this makes Boss liable for this man's death through

PURE

FUCKING

NEGLIGENCE.

And the court should judge accordingly.

[Anonymous]

USE THIS.