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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2006, 01:23:00 AM »
The idea that educating parents of these facilities, is the absolute worst path to follow in my opinion. I think a lot of kids know why... our parents knew what was going on and still kept us there. I wish polical ideology could be shelved for a moment.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2006, 03:51:00 PM »
Consumer protection laws work.

Their greatest benefit is preventing fraud.

The problems in this industry are not simply matters of common sense.  They're matters of fraud.  They're matters of specific, harmful practices.

What we have to do is outlaw the Program itself.

We all recognize the Program.  We know it when we see it.

The Program is:

1) Institutionalizing kids who could be provided any services they need in a community setting.

2) Institutionalizing mentally ill kids in a setting where they can only get incompetent treatment and emotional abuse.

3) Making kids punish other kids as a condition of getting out of the Program.

4) Depriving kids of all privacy, including bathroom, sleeping, and showers.

5) Providing kids with only bad, unappetizing food and doling out minimal improvements in that food as a tactic for manipulating the kids.

6) Making the kids wear ugly, inadequate clothing.

7) Providing the kids with only substandard, inadequate education, and depriving kids of even that little education on a whim.

:cool: Depriving kids of timely and necessary medical and dental care.

9) Abusive and excessive use of chemical and physical restraints to deliberately inflict pain and suffering on the kid.

10) Forced intimate self disclosure followed by ridicule.

11) Forcing kids to ridicule the intimate self disclosures of others as a condition of escaping the Program.

12) Sleep deprivation as a systematic tool to force compliance.

13) Abusive and injurious use of forced, repetitive, strenuous exercise.

14) Total destruction of the kid's healthy emotional boundaries by forcing the kid to "accept responsibility" for all sorts of bad acts committed by other people---whether their parents, the program staff, or the kid's rapist.

15) Depriving kids of unmonitored outside contact whether via phone, visit, or mail.  Absolutely cutting kids off from their home community, their friends, their extended family, advocacy groups, independent second opinions, child welfare authorities, and an attorney.

16) Indeterminate and arbitrary length of stay.

17) Abusive restrictions on interpersonal communication between the kids.

18) Stupid and arbitrary rules, enforced arbitrarily, used to hammer in unquestioning and immediate compliance with authority.

19) Forcing kids outside in harsh and extreme conditions for extended periods, and/or shelter provided is inadequate or intentionally designed to cause discomfort.

20) Intentional infliction of isolation and/or boredom to force compliance.  Various kinds of isolation are used.

21) Sanitation conditions that are hazardous to the kid's health.

The various implementations of The Program use different elements of the list in different ways.  Many or most do not necessarily include every item on the list.

To shut down the Program, we have to outlaw the Program itself.  To outlaw the Program, we have to ban certain specific practices on the list, and we have to require certain specific protective acts that are mutually exclusive with other practices on the list.

The laws that outlaw the Program, to be effective, have to be able to change as fast as the Program operators change to try to get around the new rules.  That takes a regulatory agency like FDA, USDA, EPA, SEC---an agency with national rulemaking authority delegated by Congress under an overall governing statute.

A federal regulatory agency is the only entity with enough flexibility and scope to actually outlaw the Program itself and shut it down, instead of just continuing the current shell game of the same bad people shuffling around within the same old Program under different names and with different cosmetic tweaks.

I hate federal bureaucracy, too.  But not enough to hide my head in the sand like an ostrich while the Program goes on hurting kids.

We have to outlaw the Program itself, or we can't shut down the places that use it.

Julie
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2006, 07:28:00 PM »
i couldnt agree with Julie more. What is education going to do with the element of parents for whom quality of care is not the test? There is an element of families where new stepmom could care less whrther the kid is being malnourished, made to join psycho cry fests and being denied adequate medical care.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2006, 09:49:00 PM »
Luckily it is not up to you.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2006, 10:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-30 11:25:00, Badpuppy wrote:

"
How are kids hurt by regulation, inspection, and standards? Sure situations occur. But their is a greater burden to cover-up and bend a rule, than if the standards are not their at all.[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-06-30 11:26 ]"


Regulation would be useful if programs were required to report abuse, deaths, assaults, sexual impropriaties, etc. That data is not available and it's difficult to educate some without it.

The way that it could possibly hurt them is if their parents were complacent, assuming that the government was protecting their child. In fact, state regulatory agencies only visit every year or two, unless there have been prior violations. In many states the licensing agency supports the program and overlooks violations.

Many foster kids end up in programs. Take a look at the Fed track record with foster kids. Would they do any better with programs?
http://www.nccpr.org/index_files/page0006.html

A friend just turned me on to the NCCPR group today, so I haven't fully researched what they're about... but I like this:
Q: Isn't foster care used only in the most severe cases of abuse?
A: No. Although some parents really are brutally abusive or hopelessly addicted, many more are not. Some accused parents are innocent of any wrongdoing. In other cases, the family is poor, and that poverty has been confused with child "neglect." In still other cases, the parent is neither all victim nor all villain, but any problems in the family could have been solved with the right kind of help, while keeping the family together safely.We believe that no child should ever be removed from the child's family for neglect alone, unless the child is suffering, or is at imminent risk of suffering, identifiable, serious harm that cannot be remediated by services.

Q: What should be done instead?
A: That depends on the case. Sometimes, the best thing child protective services can do is apologize to an innocent family, close the door and go away. In other cases, basic help to ameliorate the worst effects of poverty may be all that is needed. For example, a family living in dangerous housing may simply need enough emergency cash to pay a security deposit on a better apartment. In more serious cases, Intensive Family Preservation programs have kept together tens of thousands of families that child protective services was prepared to tear apart - and they've done it with a better safety record than foster care (See NCCPR Issue Papers 1, 10 and 11). Other states and localities have gone further, creating entire systems of care that have reduced the number of children in foster care while making children safer. Other innovations, such as the Annie E. Casey Foundation's Family to Family initiative and the Center for the Study of Social Policy?s Community Partnerships for Child Protection also show great promise as ways to keep children safely with their own parents. (The Casey Foundation also helps to fund NCCPR).

Q: But isn't using foster care a matter of "erring on the side of the child?" Doesn't it at least ensure that a child is safe?
A: No. As noted above, taking a child when there has been no abuse in the home is, in itself, an abusive act. [Programs included] A young child often will assume that he has done something terribly wrong, and now is being punished. For other children, the experience can be as traumatic as a kidnapping. And that's even if the child is placed in a good foster home. Most foster parents try to do the best they can for the children in their care (like most parents, period). But the size of the abusive minority is alarming. That minority grows when more and more children are taken into care, forcing agencies to lower standards and overcrowd foster homes. These conditions also can lead to foster children abusing each other (See NCCPR Issue Paper 1). Overall, real family preservation programs, like those we advocate, have a better track record for safety. For most children most of the time, family preservation is erring on the side of the child.

Q: Who funds NCCPR?
The Annie E. Casey Foundation and the Open Society Institute, a part of the Soros Foundations Network. We thank them for their support, but acknowledge that the views expressed on this website are those of NCCPR alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of our funders.
http://www.nccpr.org/index_files/page0002.html

And this bit from the report on Texas.
Much has been said about the problem of addiction in child welfare. But the biggest addiction problem in child welfare is not the one that afflicts some birth parents, though that is serious and real. The biggest addiction problem in child welfare involves well-heeled, well-connected private child welfare agencies with blue-chip boards of directors that are addicted to their per-diem payments. And sadly, these agencies are putting their addiction ahead of the children.
We know this because of what happened in Illinois, where changing financial incentives was crucial to the state?s successful reform effort.
Like many addicts, the Illinois agencies were ?in denial.? They insisted that per-diem payments had no impact on their decisions. They said they truly wished they could find permanent homes for children but, they said, the parents were so very, very dysfunctional and the children?s problems were so very, very intractable.
But finally, the state worked up the political courage to force private agencies to kick the per-diem habit. Private agencies in Illinois now are rewarded for keeping children safely in their own homes. They also are rewarded for adoptions. But they are penalized financially if they allow children to languish in foster care.
When the financial incentives changed, an amazing thing happened. Suddenly the ?intractable? became tractable the ?dysfunctional? became functional, the foster care population plummeted, and child
safety improved. Illinois succeeded where Kansas did not partly because the two states used different models of privatization.
http://www.nccpr.org/reports/texasreport2.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2006, 01:14:00 AM »
Deborah--I agree with you about the need for reporting requirements as a good first step.

The other information was good, too.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2006, 09:48:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-02 19:06:00, Deborah wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-30 11:25:00, Badpuppy wrote:


"
How are kids hurt by regulation, inspection, and standards? Sure situations occur. But their is a greater burden to cover-up and bend a rule, than if the standards are not their at all.[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-06-30 11:26 ]"




Regulation would be useful if programs were required to report abuse, deaths, assaults, sexual impropriaties, etc. That data is not available and it's difficult to educate some without it.



The way that it could possibly hurt them is if their parents were complacent, assuming that the government was protecting their child. In fact, state regulatory agencies only visit every year or two, unless there have been prior violations. In many states the licensing agency supports the program and overlooks violations.



Many foster kids end up in programs. Take a look at the Fed track record with foster kids. Would they do any better with programs?

http://www.nccpr.org/index_files/page0006.html



A friend just turned me on to the NCCPR group today, so I haven't fully researched what they're about... but I like this:

Q: Isn't foster care used only in the most severe cases of abuse?

A: No. Although some parents really are brutally abusive or hopelessly addicted, many more are not. Some accused parents are innocent of any wrongdoing. In other cases, the family is poor, and that poverty has been confused with child "neglect." In still other cases, the parent is neither all victim nor all villain, but any problems in the family could have been solved with the right kind of help, while keeping the family together safely.We believe that no child should ever be removed from the child's family for neglect alone, unless the child is suffering, or is at imminent risk of suffering, identifiable, serious harm that cannot be remediated by services.



Q: What should be done instead?

A: That depends on the case. Sometimes, the best thing child protective services can do is apologize to an innocent family, close the door and go away. In other cases, basic help to ameliorate the worst effects of poverty may be all that is needed. For example, a family living in dangerous housing may simply need enough emergency cash to pay a security deposit on a better apartment. In more serious cases, Intensive Family Preservation programs have kept together tens of thousands of families that child protective services was prepared to tear apart - and they've done it with a better safety record than foster care (See NCCPR Issue Papers 1, 10 and 11). Other states and localities have gone further, creating entire systems of care that have reduced the number of children in foster care while making children safer. Other innovations, such as the Annie E. Casey Foundation's Family to Family initiative and the Center for the Study of Social Policy?s Community Partnerships for Child Protection also show great promise as ways to keep children safely with their own parents. (The Casey Foundation also helps to fund NCCPR).



Q: But isn't using foster care a matter of "erring on the side of the child?" Doesn't it at least ensure that a child is safe?

A: No. As noted above, taking a child when there has been no abuse in the home is, in itself, an abusive act. [Programs included] A young child often will assume that he has done something terribly wrong, and now is being punished. For other children, the experience can be as traumatic as a kidnapping. And that's even if the child is placed in a good foster home. Most foster parents try to do the best they can for the children in their care (like most parents, period). But the size of the abusive minority is alarming. That minority grows when more and more children are taken into care, forcing agencies to lower standards and overcrowd foster homes. These conditions also can lead to foster children abusing each other (See NCCPR Issue Paper 1). Overall, real family preservation programs, like those we advocate, have a better track record for safety. For most children most of the time, family preservation is erring on the side of the child.



Q: Who funds NCCPR?

The Annie E. Casey Foundation and the Open Society Institute, a part of the Soros Foundations Network. We thank them for their support, but acknowledge that the views expressed on this website are those of NCCPR alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of our funders.

http://www.nccpr.org/index_files/page0002.html



And this bit from the report on Texas.

Much has been said about the problem of addiction in child welfare. But the biggest addiction problem in child welfare is not the one that afflicts some birth parents, though that is serious and real. The biggest addiction problem in child welfare involves well-heeled, well-connected private child welfare agencies with blue-chip boards of directors that are addicted to their per-diem payments. And sadly, these agencies are putting their addiction ahead of the children.

We know this because of what happened in Illinois, where changing financial incentives was crucial to the state?s successful reform effort.

Like many addicts, the Illinois agencies were ?in denial.? They insisted that per-diem payments had no impact on their decisions. They said they truly wished they could find permanent homes for children but, they said, the parents were so very, very dysfunctional and the children?s problems were so very, very intractable.

But finally, the state worked up the political courage to force private agencies to kick the per-diem habit. Private agencies in Illinois now are rewarded for keeping children safely in their own homes. They also are rewarded for adoptions. But they are penalized financially if they allow children to languish in foster care.

When the financial incentives changed, an amazing thing happened. Suddenly the ?intractable? became tractable the ?dysfunctional? became functional, the foster care population plummeted, and child

safety improved. Illinois succeeded where Kansas did not partly because the two states used different models of privatization.

http://www.nccpr.org/reports/texasreport2.pdf



"


Two absolutely incorrect premises:
 
That private facilities are not required to report such sentinel events (check reporting rules of any public health department, in any state) and that federal government can do ANYTHING better or more efficiently than state government.  :roll:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2006, 10:12:00 AM »
You all make it seem so hard, I wonder if you really even want to help these kids. Make it a law so every facility has to have a payphone where the kids have access to it freely to call for help if they are being abused. Also make it law to hand the kids a sheet of paper and have their rights explained to them, since adults like to use their authority to convince kids "they are not really being abused". It's not hard to do, it's just that nobody gives a shit.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2006, 10:31:00 AM »
Don't confuse skepticism with apathy.
Who will decide what the kids rights are?
Who will ensure that every kid gets a copy?
Will this law apply only to "licensed" facilities?
If states can't ensure that programs are licensed and following minimum regulations, how will the feds accomplish this?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2006, 11:02:00 AM »
Hey, that's too many questions, it's getting complicated. Better just throw up my hands, accept the fact my government cannot help!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2006, 11:25:00 AM »
The point is that the only government action that will solve the problem is complete and permanent shutdown of these pits. It's the same reason the government doesn't "regulate" heroin or cocaine, and these places are approximately as harmful.

You don't regulate child abuse. You ban it, and put the perpetrators in jail or Hell where they belong.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2006, 11:30:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-03 08:25:00, Milk Gargling Death Penalty wrote:

"The point is that the only government action that will solve the problem is complete and permanent shutdown of these pits. It's the same reason the government doesn't "regulate" heroin or cocaine, and these places are approximately as harmful.

No, the reasons for prohibition of drugs has nothing to do with how dangerous the drug is or isn't.  And I would argue that heroin and cocaine themselves are not inherently dangerous.  The abuse of them is, but not the drugs themselves.




Quote
You don't regulate child abuse. You ban it, and put the perpetrators in jail or Hell where they belong."


 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :tup:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2006, 11:30:00 PM »
...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2006, 12:16:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-03 19:32:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"
Quote




You don't regulate child abuse. You ban it, and put the perpetrators in jail or Hell where they belong."




Excellent concept worthy of being a fornits quote."


Ditto  :tup:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline teachback

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« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2006, 12:24:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-03 21:21:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

To me anyway the entire concept of regulating the TBS industry is like having OSHA do a visit on ww2 concentration camps to make sure they are using save labour practices.

You meant "safe"... Very good analogy nonetheless!
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