The Who

[TheWho]

You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , 2,959 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides   , 2,868 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides   , 2,846 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides   , 2,722 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
 NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s....  All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable

Who, are these deaths that occur in high school or are they teenagers in general.?

[TheWho]

Who, are these deaths that occur in high school or are they teenagers in general.?

They are homicides and suicides that occur at school and (If I remember correctly) also includes kids going to school and going home.
I can look that up if you like or you can check the NCES web site where the data came from, but it doesnt include the kids who dropped out of school or are attending private school or boarding schools, TBS etc. They need to be enrolled in a public school to meet the criteria.

Thats why it is broken out that way.



...

[TheWho]

@ watch out for Staff
Another way to look at it.

Lets say you had a choice of schools to send your child to:
School “A” had 10 deaths in 2 decades
School “B” had 54,000 deaths in 2 decades

And I asked someone which school they would rather send their child to and they responded:

School “A”!!

And then I asked them why and they responded:

“Because it is much safer”

Then someone came back at them and said “How can you say School “A” is safe?  Don’t you have any empathy?  Try telling the parents of those 10 children that the school is safe!!”

The person may feel bad for the 10 kids but the cause of death and individual feelings were outside the realm of the discussion and therefore the speakers on both sides could not be judged for their empathy or lack of empathy unless either one of them was asked directly.

So it has always been my belief that one needs to consider all aspects of the question and debate (especially the focus of thought) before accusing someone of being insensitive because they may not be speaking to that subject unless you refocus the discussion.



...

[RobertBruce]

Who, are these deaths that occur in high school or are they teenagers in general.?

They are homicides and suicides that occur at school and (If I remember correctly) also includes kids going to school and going home.
I can look that up if you like or you can check the NCES web site where the data came from, but it doesnt include the kids who dropped out of school or are attending private school or boarding schools, TBS etc. They need to be enrolled in a public school to meet the criteria.

Thats why it is broken out that way.



...

So Cindy, you are claiming that 60 kids die every single week in public schools from violent deaths? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Anonymous]

Who, are these deaths that occur in high school or are they teenagers in general.?

They are homicides and suicides that occur at school and (If I remember correctly) also includes kids going to school and going home.
I can look that up if you like or you can check the NCES web site where the data came from, but it doesnt include the kids who dropped out of school or are attending private school or boarding schools, TBS etc. They need to be enrolled in a public school to meet the criteria.

Thats why it is broken out that way.

...

Hey, I went to the NCES website and found THIS table for "Violent Deaths at School and Away From School" for the time span 1992-2005, figures from which don't even come close to the 54,000 figure that TheWho cites, even if you include all homicides, suicides, etc. that happened to that entire population during that time period.

Do I have the wrong table, Who? Why don't YOU provide us with the appropriate link, huh?

[Anonymous]

And btw, I might point out that "Total student, staff, and nonstudent school-associated violent deaths" -- note the "school-associated" part -- was less than 60 PER YEAR during that time period. That is for youth age 5-18 for the student part. This column is further described as:

School-associated violent deaths include a homicide, suicide, legal intervention (involving a law enforcement officer), or unintentional firearm-related death in which the fatal injury occurred on the campus of a functioning elementary or secondary school in the United States, while the victim was on the way to or from regular sessions at school or while the victim was attending or traveling to or from an official school-sponsored event. Victims include students, staff members, and others who are not students, from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2005.

[Anonymous]

Here's another table from the NCES site, different organization of the same data. This one is titled "Number of school-associated violent deaths of students, staff, and nonstudents, by type: 1992–2005." Again, total homicides plus suicides comes to less than 60 per year.

[TheWho]

Geesh, I am glade someone is finally reading this stuff.

The number looks like it is closer to 58,000 if you use the 1992 data to extrapolate 1990 and 1991.  Then do the same thing with 2006 to get 2007 and 2008.

http://http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2007/tables/table_01_1.asp?referrer=report

Its been awhile since I read it but I believe it covers all kids ages 4 thru their teen years.  If a child was in a detention center I dont believe they included them in their dataset, but again, its been awhile since reading it.


...

[TheWho]

The CDC broke out the data a little differently, by age range 10 - 24 years old.

They took it a step further and defined methods of death, i.e suffocation, hanging, poinsoning, firearm etc.
Here is a link:

http://http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5635a2.htm



...

[Anonymous]

Back pedaling again, eh, Who? The data you cite, whether one considers that number to be 54,000 or 28,000 or whatever, is mostly from the time period the student is NOT in school.

Are you saying that one of the reasons parents should send their kids to TBSs, RTCs, wilderness camps, and the like is to protect them from the world at large?

Here is an interesting statistic from the "Executive Summary" page of the section on School Indicators of Crime and Safety (2006):

Violent Deaths

    * From July 1, 2004, through June 30, 2005, there were 21 homicides and 7 suicides of school-age youth (ages 5–18) at school (Indicator 1). Combined, this number translates into about 1 homicide or suicide of a school-age youth at school per 2 million students enrolled during the 2004–05 school year.

Okay, I think that 1 death/2,000,000 (two million) school-age youth (age 5-18) is a bit lower than what occurs at these shitpits discussed on fornits, but hey, what do I know, haha...

[RobertBruce]

People, people, people. Are you just now coming to understand that Cindy makes this stuff up.

Here, here are the real numbers:

School-Associated Violent Death Summary Data


School Year
 Total Deaths
 
2008-2009
(8/1/08 to present)
 2
 
2007-2008
 16
 
2006-2007
 32
 
2005-2006
 27
 
2004-2005
 39
 
2003-2004
 49
 
2002-2003
 16
 
2001-2002
 17
 
2000-2001
 31
 
1999-2000
 33
 
Total:
 262
 
And look Cindy, watch as I preform the amazing feat of actually backing up my claim. Something you may want to learn some day. Watch...

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/sc ... lence.html


Taaa daaaa!

Cindy you've made your numbers up. There's no real basis, and the truth is that the evidence clearly shows that public schools are safer than anything in the PTS.

[TheWho]

Back pedaling again, eh, Who? The data you cite, whether one considers that number to be 54,000 or 28,000 or whatever, is mostly from the time period the student is NOT in school.

No back pedalling, the tables stand.  The numbers in the TBS and wilderness columns include suicides and deaths for the kids when they are “in school” and “out of school”.  We didn’t break them apart because the TBS doesnt differentiate whether or not the child was attending school or in their dorm at the time of death (in school or out of school).  Its important to compare apples to apples.  Thats why the tables were developed that way.  All these issues were discussed when we developed the table structure.

Are you saying that one of the reasons parents should send their kids to TBSs, RTCs, wilderness camps, and the like is to protect them from the world at large?

Look at the tables that were developed.  They show total Homicides and suicides in the public sector.  These numbers were used as a back drop to compare to TBS and wilderness data.


...

[Anonymous]

Pay heed to your own words, Who, and stick to your apples vs. apples. Comparing homicide and suicide rates, etc. which occur during time spent at TBS/wilderness with occurrence of same spent living in the world at large (as opposed to during school-related activities in the public sector) is basically saying:

One of the reasons parents should send their kids to TBSs, RTCs, wilderness camps, and the like is to protect them from the world at large.[/list]

[TheWho]

Take the numbers from the NCES tables on their site here:
http://http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2007/tables/table_01_1.asp?referrer=report

Compare them to the tables which were developed and you will see that they match.  People can draw their own conclusions on what the data is telling us. If you see it as:
 saying that one of the reasons parents should send their kids to TBSs, RTCs, wilderness camps, and the like is to protect them from the world at large? That is okay... but I believe everyone could come away with a different message.



__________________________________________________________________

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , 2,959 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides   , 2,868 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides   , 2,846 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides   , 2,722 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
 NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s....  All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable

[Froderik]

TheWho, I know you get asked this a lot, and I can't say for certain if you've answered, but anyway....

Which ones are the good programs? Are there any you know of specifically?