Author Topic: The Who  (Read 859412 times)

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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1320 on: February 05, 2007, 04:01:54 PM »
Quote
We can continue up to, I believe ,2004/5 which is the last collection for the NCES. Once we get a few years done we can step back a little and see if there have been any trends (up turns or down turns) on the national public level as well and the private TBS sector.


I see. So you've accepted you've lost the point on both these years, moving on then......
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Offline TheWho

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Data Update
« Reply #1321 on: February 05, 2007, 04:47:26 PM »
I have pretty much exhausted all the avenues I know of for collecting data for 1999-thru 2001.  The datasets will be left open if anyone comes across a name that fits the parameters (PM me or post the name) and I will add them as they come in, otherwise I am going to move on to the period July1, 2001 thru June 2002

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.) and compared to NCES data.

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will set up a new worksheet to start July 1, 2001 - Thru June 2002
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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1322 on: February 05, 2007, 06:33:54 PM »
Quote
I have pretty much exhausted all the avenues I know of for collecting data for 1999-thru 2001.

Translation:

You mean youve written everything your boss has given you permission to write.

Quote
The datasets will be left open if anyone comes across a name that fits the parameters (PM me or post the name) and I will add them as they come in,

The parameters of course being whatever works best for your agenda at the moment. These are changable at any time for any reason. Names will be added so long as they don't prove you wrong.


Quote
otherwise I am going to move on to the period July1, 2001 thru June 2002


Why bother? The same result is going to come to bear again, youre just going to be proven wrong....again.

Quote
Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.) and compared to NCES data.

Cindy not only believes he and he alone can determine what deaths count and what don't, but he can dictate the terms of the conversation. Maybe you do need to be in one of these places Cindy. Until you get there remember all the kids count, the rest of us are presenting the entire private theraputic sector. Your permission is not required.

Quote
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
 

Okay there's your make believe piece, and then here's what really happened that year:

Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school

Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.

Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.

Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.

Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.

Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.

Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.

Out of 20,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.

Translating to 1 out of every 2,857 kids being murdered by staff.

Of those same 20,000 kids 2 committed suicide.

Translating to 1 out of every 10,000 committing suicide.

This is of course for only one year June of 1999-July 2000

Quote
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.


And here's the reality for that year as well:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

Of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In school out of 52,000,000 17 kids were killed. Translating to:

1 out of every 3,058,824 kids being killed in school.

Of those same 52,000,000 5 kids committed suicide while in school.

Translating to:

1 out of every 10,400,000 kids killing themselves while in school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 20,000 kids 6 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.


I'll tell you what Cindy, since you're so dead set on proving your point that youre unwilling to look at the facts or even approach this subject objectively why bog the rest of us down with your babbelings?

I mean, since no one gives any creedence to your nonsense why don't you go away, colate and compile all the numbers you want for all the years you can and then when you're done come back and here and present them.

Afterwards of course I'll respond with the actual numbers shoot your stupid argument down and we can let the parents decide for themselves who is right and who is wrong.

Sound good?
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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1323 on: February 05, 2007, 07:03:54 PM »
While you're thinking about that, tell me something. What in your mind is the primary difference between a TBS (as you define one) and an RTC?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The Who
« Reply #1324 on: February 05, 2007, 07:51:44 PM »
I think we have proved the who is either a bot or just a stone-faced repetitive winner of who gives up first by not ever giving up repeating his bullshit.

Never mind the therapy itself is intrinsically wrong, we've now demonstrated the risk of death and suicide is HIGHER in a program so even the warehouse angle won't work... but he keeps on going.

WOW.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1325 on: February 05, 2007, 07:57:31 PM »
I am sorry all this upsets you so much, Bob.  The parameters are clear and anyone is free to add any data that fit the parameters.. I am not sure how much easier or clearer I can make it.  I believe one of the struggles you are having with all of this is the fact that I am not including the entire therapeutic industry.  After a long debate it was decided that parents would have greater latitude if they were granted the freedom to choose the category they were interested in. So we embarked on a quest to compare TBS?s to the Public sector to see what turned up.  After we bring this up to date we can start on ?Wilderness programs?.  We personally don?t see any value in lumping in mental hospitals, group homes, state run boot camps etc. if a parent is presently and/or actively researching TBS?s or wilderness programs.  They should be able to access the information pertinent to the specific area they are interested in.  I am not saying an overall comparison to the Therapeutic community has no merit, because I think it does.  But from a parents perspective it doesn?t help their immediate needs if they are contemplating a TBS or Wilderness type program.
Don?t take this as criticism because the data you are collecting has merit and can be used in decision making, in some capacity, in the future and I would like to tap your resources at that time, but presently we plan to stay the course.

We have the data for our next time frame which is July1, 2001 thru June 2002 from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) and here is how we stand today:

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.)

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data to present
:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS: -----There were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS --------There were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS: -----There were 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS --------There were 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.  (Data set still open)
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002  

Outside a TBS: -----There were 2,053 Homicides and 1,777 suicides
Inside a TBS --------There were 0 Homicides and 0 suicides.  (No data accumulated as of today)
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The Who
« Reply #1326 on: February 05, 2007, 07:59:20 PM »
For the love of fucking god someone lock this thread  ::bangin::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Charly

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The Who
« Reply #1327 on: February 05, 2007, 08:27:49 PM »
AP-"CHICAGO - New government figures show a surprising increase in youth suicides after a decade of decline, and some mental health experts think a drop in use of antidepressant drugs may be to blame.

Suicides climbed 18 percent from 2003 to 2004 for Americans under age 20, from 1,737 to 1,985 deaths. Most suicides occurred in older teens, according to the data
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The Who
« Reply #1328 on: February 05, 2007, 08:29:44 PM »
Did the suicide RATE change?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

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Re: Data Update
« Reply #1329 on: February 05, 2007, 08:31:58 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I have pretty much exhausted all the avenues I know of for collecting data for 1999-thru 2001.  The datasets will be left open if anyone comes across a name that fits the parameters (PM me or post the name) and I will add them as they come in, otherwise I am going to move on to the period July1, 2001 thru June 2002

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.) and compared to NCES data.

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will set up a new worksheet to start July 1, 2001 - Thru June 2002


According to the US Census data This is the population data for kids: (let's argue only 10-20 year olds end up in TBS schools.

10 to 14 years   20,528,072   7.3
15 to 19 years   20,219,890   7.2
---------------------------------------
                       40,747,962

So let's get the suicide rate from that..

40,747,962 / 1890
=
1 in every 21559.768 kids

Us census suicide data:
http://http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html
My math gets about 1 in 23000 for that age group in 2000.
(and that's outside of school)

Fairly good so far.

Now provide some hard data regarding suicides in TBSs...  You aren't going to get hard data... so what is the fucking point... (both of you)  I know there are more suicides in program because.... guess what.  I witnessed many attempts (3 personally in a 6 month period).. and there was one success after i left.  Nevermind the kids weren't suicidal before they got there...

Statistics mean shit without solid methods of collection.. and there are none in this industry...
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The Who
« Reply #1330 on: February 05, 2007, 08:34:36 PM »
babble babble bitch bitch...

Why bother, psy?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1331 on: February 05, 2007, 09:05:23 PM »
Quote
I am sorry all this upsets you so much, Bob

It doesn't Cindy, you seem to forget I'm the one with the accurate information.

Quote
The parameters are clear and anyone is free to add any data that fit the parameters

Yeah, your parameters. I'm not sure where you got the notion that you could dictate things to people here, you need to accept that it doesnt work that way.


Quote
 I am not sure how much easier or clearer I can make it.

I get what youre trying to do Cindy, I just don't care. I'm not interested in supporting your agenda therefore I'm not going along with your misinformation.

Quote
I believe one of the struggles you are having with all of this is the fact that I am not including the entire therapeutic industry

Well its not really a struggle since I can do it just fine on my own. As I mentioned to you before all I'm doing is frustrating your attempts to con parents. Every time you post a lie I can be right there behind you to post the truth.

Quote
After a long debate it was decided that parents would have greater latitude if they were granted the freedom to choose the category they were interested in.

Wait wait wait......tell me when did this "long debate" take place, and with whom? Further at when point were you deemed an expert that you can decide what is best for parents? Cindy you arent even close to be able to make such a call, your own daughter by your own addmission hates you. The thing I can't decide is if youre just crazy and really believe your own selfimportance or if youre just an asshole. Probably a little of both.

Quote
So we embarked on a quest to compare TBS?s to the Public sector to see what turned up

Who is "we"? You mean you and you alone. Don't forget you originally wanted to compare TBS's to public school's. I provided you with your own quote as a means of proving that you changed your criteria because you were afraid of being proven wrong, ( this despite the fact that youre proven wrong almost daily, youre just too stupid to recognize it.) the rest of us have already seen what "turned up" (again) youre just too stupid to see it, or maybe just too brainwashed.



Quote
After we bring this up to date we can start on ?Wilderness programs?

Ummmmm we're already there Cindy, when you catch up with the rest of the class you let me know.

Quote
We personally don?t see any value in lumping in mental hospitals, group homes, state run boot camps etc.

Who is "we"? Maybe you are crazy Cindy. Maybe youre schizo. It's looking that way more and more.

Quote
if a parent is presently and/or actively researching TBS?s or wilderness programs. They should be able to access the information pertinent to the specific area they are interested in

That's right idiot they should be able to, what you feel however is that they should be able to access the information that you deem pertinent. I however believe they should be given all the information and then be allowed to decide for themselves what they are interested in and what they are not interested in.

Quote
I am not saying an overall comparison to the Therapeutic community has no merit, because I think it does.

Oh well I appreciate your endorsement but its not nessecary, I've already proven the point despite your best efforts.

Quote
But from a parents perspective it doesn?t help their immediate needs if they are contemplating a TBS or Wilderness type program.

Unless of course they want all the information availible (most people do when making an uninformed choice) or if they are looking for information regarding group homes, mental hospitals, or RTC's (your definition anyway), in both scenarios your information is incomplete and therefore useless. Terms I'm sure many use to describe you.

Quote
Don?t take this as criticism because the data you are collecting has merit and can be used in decision making, in some capacity, in the future and I would like to tap your resources at that time, but presently we plan to stay the course.


There's that "we" again. I assume this time you are infering me as well. Sorry Cindy I'm not interested in "your" course. Youre flying blind and you expect others to climb on board. I'll stick with the entire picture and all the truth, not just your selected viewing.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Data Update
« Reply #1332 on: February 05, 2007, 09:10:27 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I have pretty much exhausted all the avenues I know of for collecting data for 1999-thru 2001.  The datasets will be left open if anyone comes across a name that fits the parameters (PM me or post the name) and I will add them as they come in, otherwise I am going to move on to the period July1, 2001 thru June 2002

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.) and compared to NCES data.

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS:
There were 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There were 0 Homicides and 1 suicide.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will set up a new worksheet to start July 1, 2001 - Thru June 2002

According to the US Census data This is the population data for kids: (let's argue only 10-20 year olds end up in TBS schools.

10 to 14 years   20,528,072   7.3
15 to 19 years   20,219,890   7.2
---------------------------------------
                       40,747,962

So let's get the suicide rate from that..

40,747,962 / 1890
=
1 in every 21559.768 kids

Us census suicide data:
http://http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html
My math gets about 1 in 23000 for that age group in 2000.
(and that's outside of school)

Fairly good so far.

Now provide some hard data regarding suicides in TBSs...  You aren't going to get hard data... so what is the fucking point... (both of you)  I know there are more suicides in program because.... guess what.  I witnessed many attempts (3 personally in a 6 month period).. and there was one success after i left.  Nevermind the kids weren't suicidal before they got there...

Statistics mean shit without solid methods of collection.. and there are none in this industry...


Point well taken, psy.  It will be difficult, at best, to analyze the data once we collect it.  First of all we need to come up with a common denominator/ hard numbers of how many kids are in TBS?s each year (10,000, 20,000, 30,000), which like you said, is hard to come by or just not available. Secondly, many kids attending TBS?s are ?At risk? kids so one may expect to see a higher suicide rate in TBS?s than as compared to a representative cross section of the public sector.

This is one reason we chose Homicides and suicides, because they are made public record and can be easier to collect.  Other (lesser) abuses sometimes go unreported (in the public as well as private sector) and can be deemed unreliable in the data collection phase.  I am not sure , at this point how collecting occurrences of these types of abuse can be approached.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1333 on: February 05, 2007, 09:23:56 PM »
Quote from: ""Charly""
AP-"CHICAGO - New government figures show a surprising increase in youth suicides after a decade of decline, and some mental health experts think a drop in use of antidepressant drugs may be to blame.

Suicides climbed 18 percent from 2003 to 2004 for Americans under age 20, from 1,737 to 1,985 deaths. Most suicides occurred in older teens, according to the data


Thanks charly -- That is an interesting observation about the antidepressants.  I was in a conversation recently and had heard there is pressure being put on the doctors  (by who else, the insurance companies) to reduce the free flow of medications, especially in the mental health field.
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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #1334 on: February 05, 2007, 09:26:44 PM »
Quote
Wait wait wait......tell me when did this "long debate" take place, and with whom? Further at when point were you deemed an expert that you can decide what is best for parents? Cindy you arent even close to be able to make such a call, your own daughter by your own addmission hates you. The thing I can't decide is if youre just crazy and really believe your own selfimportance or if youre just an asshole. Probably a little of both.


Answer this question psychward.
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