The Who

[RobertBruce]

I would like to reiterate that we are only at the data collection phase. There cant be any right or wrong, it is what it is. Parameters are defined and the data either meets the criteria or it doesn?t.

When embarking on discovery it is important to define the parameters you will be confined to so as to limit the arguments later on when the data is analyzed. That is why I have been such a stickler in reiterating (Et Nauseum sometime, I know) the parameters we are constricted to. We could pick many parameters, mental hospitals, group homes, boot camps etc. but from talking to other parents, the PM's and the emails I have received, I feel, there is value to narrow our scope to TBS?s, at least for now. I know many of you have mentioned it and I fully realize that Wilderness may be a good second choice and we can tackle that later on and maybe parallel the data with the TBS?s to see how they compare. One major resource that can be tapped into is the NCES. They are well respected and have been collecting data for years and have set very clear boundary conditions on where their data comes from and have proven themselves repeatedly to be consistent year after year. I have proposed and am embarking on a task to parallel their effort in the TBS sector. I have completed the year ending in June 2000 and am presently working on filling the data points for the year ending June 2001.
My hope in all of this is to shed some light on the physical safety of our children as they enter and go through TBS ?s as a small subset of the therapeutic community as a whole and as compared to the public sector. There are other studies which are underway which are lumping all non public programs together (i.e. mental hospitals, group homes, boot camps, wilderness programs) in an effort to examine them against the same criteria (NCES) which should yield interesting in itself, but my focus is strictly TBS?s.

My progress may be slow, but I promise methodical. If anyone has any information which may aid in the collection of this data I would appreciate the help and added accuracy.
I will update my findings as often as I can,

Thanks

Cindy in all likelyhood the only parents who have ever spoken to you about this issue were the ones subjecting their children to the same mistreatement you subjected your daughter to. Any claim that parents on here have turned to you for advice on these matters is without question a lie. As much as you'd like to believe that your credibility level is sky high, the reality of the situation is that it's in the sewers. No one puts any stock into anything you say, youre a joke and a waste of time. The only reason I respond to you is to frustrate you by posting the truth every time you post a lie. Which is generally every time you post something.

As to any parameters, you continue to pretend the NCES has dealt with this issue, it has not. The NCES doesnt even comment on the PTS, you also continue to want to change the parameters depending on what you're looking at. If its the data regarding the public sector then according to you (and you alone the NCES does not agree) then the data should all be lumped together and counted as one big thing. If it's data regarding the private theraputic sector than it needs to split up as much as possible and looked at only one piece at a time, anything to try and prove a point you lost long ago. As I've told you many times on here Cindy, you cannot have it both ways.

So then with that in mind here is the way the figures currently stand for the time period in question:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 20,000 kids 6 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.

You are free to split all the hairs you like and set all the parameters you like as well, we however are not bound by your demands and will continue to present parents with all the information availible since parents should be presented with all the possible options, not just the ones you want them to see.

If you can't handle it I suggest you move on. The hla boards and strugglingteens might prove a more receptive audience for your misinformation.

[TheWho]

I don't need data of death rates to see that its stupid to do that to children.

I agree, I don?t need the data either.  But parents who are looking for a safe place for their child are looking for some assurance (as a bare minimum) that the place the child is going is at least safer than where they are now.

[Anonymous]

What do you do for a living TheWho?

[RobertBruce]

He runs a sweat shop.

Cindy perhaps you could look at each school individually. The overall data has already proven two years in a row that the public sector is a great deal safer than the private theraputic one, and this is just dealing with deaths. We havent even touched rapes and other abuses.

Try it that way, you might have some better luck.

Has ASR ever had any children killed while enrolled there?

Any of their students ever committ suicide?

If youre still stuck on beating your dead horse and being laughed at there are still some other questions youve been to cowardly to answer. See if you cant get Mr. Jingles to help.

1. If these kids were not killed by staff members how did they die?

2. If you had a child in your care and he died in the same manner as some of these other kids would you likely be charged with anything?

3. Do you find it odd that of all the deaths that occur in the private theraputic sector charges are seldom brought?

4. If someone was hurt or killed in your factory would you deal with in the same manner these places deal with the deaths that occur in their premises?

[TheWho]

Here you go Bob.  The parents can review the link  (Link to NCES:  http://nces.ed.gov/)  ,as most of them have already, and decide for themselves on the validity of the NCES parameters and the data within them.  

Being a parent of a child who attended a TBS I think prospective parents would find this information helpful:

The data I am collecting parallels the NCES's and their parameters:

The present year we are working on is July1, 2000 thru June 2001:

Here is what we have to date:

 Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.)

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 1 suicides.  (Data still being collected for TBS?s)[/quote]


Ryan Lewis  suicide feb 13, 2001 Aldredge Academy (counted)

[TheWho]

I put up a new sig gif just for you Who. Something to put it all in perspective.

Dam....60/40 against removing it......can I vote more than once?   I was hoping you would go with a single photo or something less distractive....

[Anonymous]

THE WHO, all data put aside:  after reading your posts, I would not send my child to a program for one reason ONLY.  I would not want my child to come home from a program and behave the way your daughter did POST PROGRAM:  run away and not speak to me for 2 years! and not be able to communicate with and get along with her previous friends.
NOW: you can sit around and say: All of your daughter's post-program behaviors are because "she matured so quickly while you had her locked away,"---I say you are stupid as an OX, if you believe that.
Your daughter probably didn't speak to you for 2 years because she doesn't like you, resented being locked away in your precious program, and got really, really tired of listening to your shit.
You are tiring and boring---you know.
Could you give all of us a 2 year break here?

[Anonymous]

I'm just curious what happens when these idiots' kids come on and read this shit.

Even I honestly cannot fathom the level of rage that would inspire.

[TheWho]

THE WHO, all data put aside:  after reading your posts, I would not send my child to a program for one reason ONLY.  I would not want my child to come home from a program and behave the way your daughter did POST PROGRAM:  run away and not speak to me for 2 years! and not be able to communicate with and get along with her previous friends.
NOW: you can sit around and say: All of your daughter's post-program behaviors are because "she matured so quickly while you had her locked away,"---I say you are stupid as an OX, if you believe that.
Your daughter probably didn't speak to you for 2 years because she doesn't like you, resented being locked away in your precious program, and got really, really tired of listening to your shit.
You are tiring and boring---you know.
Could you give all of us a 2 year break here?

When she first got home she had a difficult time adjusting. She went back to her old friends for a few weeks and found that she had outgrown them (matured) and eventually found a more mature and healthier group to hang out with. She didn?t move away and our relationship has been great.
Some of my feed back to ASR was the transition back home and I heard from other parents that ASR has addressed the issue and transitions are much smoother now.

I think one thing you are missing here is many of the kids which enter ASR are very immature for their age and the maturation process can be accelerated if the child is placed in a mature and safe environment where they can thrive and grow.

Take any of the kids that join, say a group sport at school. Within no time they mature very quickly in ways like having respect for others, themselves, organizing and being responsible for their own equipment, getting to practice on time, healthier friendships etc.

Many of you focus too much on the bumps in the road and not the destination. Is it a tough road, yes, no question about it!! But many of the kids thrive and do so well when they get home.

[TheWho]

I'm just curious what happens when these idiots' kids come on and read this shit.

Even I honestly cannot fathom the level of rage that would inspire.

Lactose, the collection of data isn?t new here.  There were many people here on fornits trying to accumulate and get their arms around the number of kids who were hurt in different sectors of the teen help industry, over the years.  No one seemed outraged then, why would they?  If it isn?t talked about and/or exposed how is anyone going to initiate and eventually effect change in the industry?

[RobertBruce]

Here you go Bob. The parents can review the link (Link to NCES: http://nces.ed.gov/) ,as most of them have already, and decide for themselves on the validity of the NCES parameters and the data within them.

What you still somehow (despite the absolute simplicity) fail to grasp is that you are not using the same parameters as the NCES does for all the data. You change your parameters based on convience for your agenga. Look at just this example:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindica ... le_1.1.asp

When the NCES looks at the data they break it down to specific areas, you on the other hand want to lump everything together as it fits better for your agenda. Of course for the private theraputic sector you want to split everything down to the last possible hair, anything to exclude as many deaths as possible. You also keep trying to pretend that the NCES has already done this comparrison, they havent.

Youre applying double standards and getting frustrated because no one is buying into it, you're including everything you can for the public sector, excluding everything you can for the private theraputic one.

Let me do some editing of my own for you Cindy. The majority of the parents who come looking for this type of information are doing so because they feel their children are in an unsafe enviroment. It would stand to reason that some of the deaths on the list for the private sector occured in the childrens homes. Parents who are trying to find a safe place for their kids probably arent concerned about the home being dangerous, if it was they wouldnt care, and thus wouldn't be looking for an alternative.

Remove any deaths that occured in the home.

The parameters for the NCES include accidental deaths. Accidents happen everywhere, whether the child is a safe environment or not, whether the child is a troubled teen or not.

Remove any accidental deaths.

The parameters for the NCES also include random acts of violence, a girl attracts the attention of a rapist, he follows her home, rapes her and murders her. A child is walking down the street in front of a bank when a robbery takes place, the robber fires off his weapon as he is leaving and the kid is struck and killed. In neither case were the kids involved in an unsafe environment or were they troubled teens, it was simply happenstance.

Remove any random acts of violence that lead to death.

The parameters for suicide do not differentiate between accidental suicide and intentional suicide, and neither do M.E. reports. Just last month a number of children accidentially killed themselves imitating the Sadamm hanging. Obviously they didnt intend to kill themselves, they werent troubled teens or in an unsafe place, nevertheless it happened.

Remove any accidental suicides.

If you are unwilling or unable to remove those deaths and get a clearer look at the numbers than you have no just cause to get upset with us because we refuse to split hairs regarding the private theraputic sector deaths.

All of the PTS kids are going to be counted Cindy, each and every one, you stomping your feet and crying about it won't do you any good.

Parents have a right to be given all the information availible, not just what you think they need.

The data for the year in question stands as follows:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

Of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In school out of 52,000,000 17 kids were killed. Translating to:

1 out of every 3,058,824 kids being killed in school.

Of those same 52,000,000 5 kids committed suicide while in school.

Translating to:

1 out of every 10,400,000 kids killing themselves while in school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 20,000 kids 6 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.


Cindy you can accept this or not, it's up to you. I doubt you will since you've already stated on here you are not interested in learning the truth about these places. If you truly have your heart set of parading around your propoganda its your perogative, just understand that no one is buying into it, espically when they can just as easily see the truth I've posted. Also, you need to understand that the more you try and present your garabage as fact the more you like a tired fool and the  less credibility you have, and you know how important that is to you.

[TheWho]

Yes, the NCES breaks it out and they report it in totals also, as I am doing.  Here take a look, Here is an Example of one of the many ways they present their data:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindica ... r=1#fig1.1

I have reviewed 48 names to date for the July1, 2000 thru June 2001 time frame and have the following results:


Here is how it looks:

Remember this applies only to TBS?s (not group homes and hospitals etc.)

So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001  

Outside a TBS:
There where 2,059 Homicides and 1,890 suicides
Inside a TBS
There where 0 Homicides and 1 suicides.  (Data set still open)


Ryan Lewis  suicide feb 13, 2001 Aldredge Academy (counted)

I have a few more sources for names to review and then I will move on to July1, 2001 thru June 2002.  At some point I will tally the years and we can take a look at any trends that may become apparent.

[Troll Control]

The Who wrote:

At some point I will tally the years and we can take a look at any trends that may become apparent.

Which years?  The ones you've spent chasing your tail with 'data' and trying to soft-sell programs?   :rofl:  

[TheWho]

The Who wrote:

At some point I will tally the years and we can take a look at any trends that may become apparent.

Which years?  The ones you've spent chasing your tail with 'data' and trying to soft-sell programs?   :rofl:  

The years we have been tracking.  We finished up the collection periods:

July1, 1999 thru June 2000  and
July1, 2000 thru June 2001

We can continue up to, I believe ,2004/5 which is the last collection for the NCES.  Once we get a few years done we can step back a little and see if there have been any trends (up turns or down turns) on the national public level as well and the private TBS sector.

At that point maybe we can move on and take a look at Wilderness programs....  there is no intent to sell anything, just looking at the numbers.

[RobertBruce]

Yes, the NCES breaks it out and they report it in totals also, as I am doing. Here take a look, Here is an Example of one of the many ways they present their data:

Yet you refuse to differentiate between deaths occuring in public school and outside of school as the NCES does. You did originally but quickly changed your focus when you saw how the data showed the odds being incredibly unlikely that a kid would ever die in a public school. At which point you suddenly decided you wanted to talk about the public sector, no longer public schools.

Since I know you'll deny it let me refresh your memory:

Because we are comparing schools. Wilderness programs typically last only a few weeks.
I think the data is useful and should be tracked, I just dont think it can counted the same as a school.

Your own link proves that the NCES splits up the data, yet you refuse to (at least in the public sector) because it disproves the point your so set on making.

I have reviewed 48 names to date for the July1, 2000 thru June 2001 time frame and have the following results:


Here is how it looks:

Hey that's great Cindy, you keep your numbers if you want, the rest of us are going to stick with facts.

Here's what they happen to look like:

In the public sector out of 52,000,000 kids 2059 were killed outside of school, roughly translating to:

1 out of every 25,255 kids being killed outside of school.

Of those same 52,000,000 1,890 committed suicide outside of school.

Translating to roughly

1 out of every 27,513 kids committing suicide outside of school.

In school out of 52,000,000 17 kids were killed. Translating to:

1 out of every 3,058,824 kids being killed in school.

Of those same 52,000,000 5 kids committed suicide while in school.

Translating to:

1 out of every 10,400,000 kids killing themselves while in school.

In the Private Theraputic Sector out of 20,000 kids 6 kids were killed by staff members, translating to:

1 out of every 3,334 kids being killed by staff members.

Of those same 20,000 kids 1 committed suicide, translating to:

1 out of every 20,000 kids killing themselves.

Accept it or not, it doesnt matter, as I said before we are going to continue to provide parents with all the options, not just the ones you prefer theyd see.