The Who

[AtomicAnt]

I didn?t ignore it, I guess I am just desensitized because I have seen so much. I dont think anyone is saying it doesnt happen. What I disagree with is that this is regarded as somehow standard, unique to TBS?s or is written into their procedures somehow. Lots of really bad and shocking stuff happens to kids at the local school level, suicide, raped by a teacher, teachers being shot, public humiliation, track coaches forcing kids to run until they drop and some dieing of heart attacks. 10 times worse than twisting wrists. But when a prestigious school or controversial school or program has a problem it is put under a higher powered microscope. I think it is good, though. The more visibility the swifter the change will occur. If this happened at a school my kid was at I would pull her in a heart beat or ask for corrective action.
I am with you......

Once again with the poor analogies. The shocking incidents you describe are not standard operating procedures. They are criminal acts or tragedies that schools try to prevent.

The wrist twisting is a standard procedure and regular practice at Aspen. The video is not unique. Mike Wallace and 60 minutes also did an expose on Aspen and they used the same wrist twisting technique on a mild mannered fourteen-year-old because he was refusing to hike.

When the boy asked why they had to hurt him, the program shrink twisted the logic backwards and asked the kid, "Why do you think we need to hurt you?" A counselor, facing right into the camera, made it clear that this was standard practice to 'accelerate' the boys 'participation.'

Mike interviewed two other children who claimed these techniques were used on them. These three children were in different groups and had no contact with other.

Another problem with your post is to dismiss the wrist twisting because it is not as bad as the other things you list. So, you dismiss this form of torture as not important because it is not as bad as being raped.

You are right about being desensitized. I am physically shaking having watched that video. Like Niles, I cannot help but have empathy for the girl by imagining how it must feel to be her. She must have been terrified, angry, felt helpless that she could not get away, felt outraged and helpless that no one would help her, and all the while endured excruciating pain.

[TheWho]

I didn?t ignore it, I guess I am just desensitized because I have seen so much. I dont think anyone is saying it doesnt happen. What I disagree with is that this is regarded as somehow standard, unique to TBS?s or is written into their procedures somehow. Lots of really bad and shocking stuff happens to kids at the local school level, suicide, raped by a teacher, teachers being shot, public humiliation, track coaches forcing kids to run until they drop and some dieing of heart attacks. 10 times worse than twisting wrists. But when a prestigious school or controversial school or program has a problem it is put under a higher powered microscope. I think it is good, though. The more visibility the swifter the change will occur. If this happened at a school my kid was at I would pull her in a heart beat or ask for corrective action.
I am with you......

Once again with the poor analogies. The shocking incidents you describe are not standard operating procedures. They are criminal acts or tragedies that schools try to prevent.

The wrist twisting is a standard procedure and regular practice at Aspen. The video is not unique. Mike Wallace and 60 minutes also did an expose on Aspen and they used the same wrist twisting technique on a mild mannered fourteen-year-old because he was refusing to hike.

When the boy asked why they had to hurt him, the program shrink twisted the logic backwards and asked the kid, "Why do you think we need to hurt you?" A counselor, facing right into the camera, made it clear that this was standard practice to 'accelerate' the boys 'participation.'

Mike interviewed two other children who claimed these techniques were used on them. These three children were in different groups and had no contact with other.

Another problem with your post is to dismiss the wrist twisting because it is not as bad as the other things you list. So, you dismiss this form of torture as not important because it is not as bad as being raped.

You are right about being desensitized. I am physically shaking having watched that video. Like Niles, I cannot help but have empathy for the girl by imagining how it must feel to be her. She must have been terrified, angry, felt helpless that she could not get away, felt outraged and helpless that no one would help her, and all the while endured excruciating pain.

The shocking incidents you describe are not standard operating procedures. They are criminal acts or tragedies that schools try to prevent.

Yes they are and they are not analogies, they happened.

The wrist twisting is a standard procedure and regular practice at Aspen.

Are you saying one specific school?  Because this was not used, to my knowledge, at ASR.

Another problem with your post is to dismiss the wrist twisting because it is not as bad as the other things you list. So, you dismiss this form of torture as not important because it is not as bad as being raped.

I reread my post and I did not dismiss the incident, I said I have been exposed to incidents that were worse and therefore didn?t effect me as it would, to say, someone who had never been exposed to any violence before.  Everyone is different, it didn?t make me ill watching it. If the video was of a girl being forcibly raped or dieing of a heart attack,  I would be ill and probably have to turn it off, others may be unaffected, everyone has their tolerance. It is wrong and should be corrected and like I said I would pull my kid in a heart beat if she was exposed.
AA, Hope this clears it up.

[TheWho]

So this sort of torture and such is fine with you as long as it doesn't happen to your own kid?

Ha,Ha,Ha no,no its not okay, but I can see how it can be taken that way.  Other parents might understand, its sort of a knee jerk reaction when have kids and you see other kids in a situation or bind you quickly respond to protect your own, that?s all.  Its not okay to subject other peoples kids to it.

[TheWho]

Yet even with the mounting evidence against Aspen you seem rather reluctant to accept that they aren't quite what you have billed them to be.

I havent read any mounting evidence, not sure where the abuse occured or when.  Is this an isolated incident within one camp?  or is this happening and standard procedure through out the Aspen organization?
I cant change my opinion based on a couple utube clips and I wouldnt expect you to if they had one on a success story and how a life was changed for the better because of Aspen.
I think mounting evidence takes time and I just havent seen that yet.

[Anonymous]

Yet even with the mounting evidence against Aspen you seem rather reluctant to accept that they aren't quite what you have billed them to be.

I havent read any mounting evidence.

If Karen in Dallas could be somehow considered "evidence" would you consider mounting her?

[AtomicAnt]

Are you saying one specific school? Because this was not used, to my knowledge, at ASR.

The "to my knowledge" part is what bothers me. Most, if not all, of the programs written about here involve controlling the child's contact with parents or anyone outside the program. That leaves open the possibility for unreported abuse. If the abuse does happen, there are no witnesses. As mentioned many times here, the program will proactively prepare the parents for 'allegations' of abuse by warning parents that kids are liars and manipulators.

[Anonymous]

Are you making money off this place like I think Karen is?

Ohhhhh really...? Hmm.. not really surprising though..

Are you making money off of them, Karen you whore, you?  :rofl:

Karen, you've been a bad, bad girl.

Admit it, Karen... Now!

[TheWho]

Are you saying one specific school? Because this was not used, to my knowledge, at ASR.

The "to my knowledge" part is what bothers me. Most, if not all, of the programs written about here involve controlling the child's contact with parents or anyone outside the program. That leaves open the possibility for unreported abuse. If the abuse does happen, there are no witnesses. As mentioned many times here, the program will proactively prepare the parents for 'allegations' of abuse by warning parents that kids are liars and manipulators.

"to my knowledge" is all any of us can rely on. Yes but you forget, my daughter has been out several years and we have taked extensively on her experiences and those who went thru the process with her.  The abuse just wasnt there.  We all have to make decisions on what we know and have learned, and hopefully we all are doing that.

[TheWho]

No I think the real case in this matter is you have simply chosen to once again ignore it.

And thats okay, you are entitled to your opinion.  I have reread my posts and I dont see where I have ignored any points that have been brought up for discussion, so I feel comfortable.

Got to bale and catch the news, its late here.

[Anonymous]

Are you making money off this place like I think Karen is?

Ohhhhh really...? Hmm.. not really surprising though..

Are you making money off of them, Karen you whore, you?  :rofl:

Karen, you've been a bad, bad girl.

Admit it, Karen... Now!

 :rofl:  :rofl:  ::bwahaha::  ::bwahaha2::  ::hehehmm::  :scared:  ::drummer::  ::deal::  ::rocker::  ::bigsmilebounce::  :nworthy:  :tup:  :tup:

[Oz girl]

Again with the ASR Who. i actually took your advice and read What it takes to pull me through. The ASR that Dave marcus described sounded like a shit hole! Pehaps you can answer these questions
-Was it wise to send an anorexic drug addict on a physically demanding Wilderness trek?
-if ASR was so wonderful why did Ashley try to kill herself when she got the fantastic news they would keep her there another year?
-Why was every kid strip searched? Tyrone had not even tried dope or any other drug, neither had DJ
-Do you think Trevor, the popular English Lad was saved by ASR? His London visit did not really go so well did it?
-And what of Trevors now dead American mate Tanner. i wonder what his poor parents think of ASR? Hi dad may now be coherent. he was initially so grief stricken that he went over the deepend and robbed the local jeweller!
-Do you have any insight into the fact that marcus devoted 1 line to the  enthusiastic young English teacher leaving after one year saying the only thing she liked about the place was the kids?
-Did it surprise you that DJ a kid who was kind of young and naive for his age felt the need to bullshit about how "bad" he was when he was around older more sophisticated boys? Do you think lumping him in with such kids was helpful. If so why?

[RobertBruce]

Of course it isn't, almost anything you say is garrunteed to be bullshit. I cannot fathom how you can demand proof beyond a shadow of a doubt for any claim made that opposes your ideology, yet you refuse to back up any of your claims. How does this double standard work in your mind? Or are you just that much of a jackass?

I am real comfortable with it, Bob.  You are the one that seems to be stressed out.............

Oh I'm not stressed, most of your comments inspire laughter on my part, well laughter and amazement. I can't quite understand how someone as dense as you not only convinced some woman to not only marry him, but to have sex with him as well. I understand now why you gravitated towards the TBS industry so whole heartedly, you're weak willed and an idiot, just the kind of person they want. Plus you picked up on the ridiculus circle logic without much trouble at all. Impressive considering just how dumb you are.

See if you can't break your programming and back up your own claims, just once.

[Deborah]

So this sort of torture and such is fine with you as long as it doesn't happen to your own kid?

Ha,Ha,Ha no,no its not okay, but I can see how it can be taken that way.  Other parents might understand, its sort of a knee jerk reaction when have kids and you see other kids in a situation or bind you quickly respond to protect your own, that?s all.  Its not okay to subject other peoples kids to it.

Lucy was not a threat to herself or anyone else, except the staff's ego. She was subjected to POW techniques for non-compliance.
Not an isolated incident. Another fine example of the techniques that aren't spelled out in the Parent Manual. I was really shocked they let it air. Bet they correct that error in the future.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=238047#238047

[AtomicAnt]

Yet even with the mounting evidence against Aspen you seem rather reluctant to accept that they aren't quite what you have billed them to be.

I havent read any mounting evidence, not sure where the abuse occured or when.  Is this an isolated incident within one camp?  or is this happening and standard procedure through out the Aspen organization?
I cant change my opinion based on a couple utube clips and I wouldnt expect you to if they had one on a success story and how a life was changed for the better because of Aspen.
I think mounting evidence takes time and I just havent seen that yet.

In a rational society, this one video would be enough to shut them down (or at least land those two thugs and their supervisors in jail). How many kids tortured kids does it take to constitute 'mounting evidence?'

And in this post you are pretty much lying. The evidence does not stop at a couple of youtube clips. It also consists of a 60 Minutes Documentary, several news articles and the statements of dozens of former program attendees on this site and others. And don't deny you are not aware of this evidence. You have been around here too long for that to be plausible.

[Deborah]

Hey OG,
I didn't read Marcus's book. What happened to Trevor? Tanner?
Connect the dots for me. Doesn't sound good. Can you give us a Cliff's Notes version of what happened to the kids, post program.