Author Topic: more from struggling turkeys (Karen in Dallas wrote this)  (Read 11813 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2006, 02:45:00 AM »
why bother logging in, you will just break down what I say anyway.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2006, 05:03:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-06-29 23:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"RandomWalk

Member

Member # 3697



  posted June 18, 2006 12:50 PM                        

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't focusing on the fact that he is only with you for a week. Clearly, he knows he can take advantage of you as much as he wants. BUT- agree that you should find positive ways to relate to him and make the week as enjoyable as possible.



Re: Fornits. I had this silly notion that one could engage in logical discussion and perhaps share some things from a parent's viewpoint. That isn't the way it works. That forum consists mainly of psychopaths who want to punish parents for how they were treated by their own parents, their employers or teen programs they attended several decades ago. There IS no reasoning going on, and turning to that board for advice is masochistic. The owner of the site, Ginger Warbis, clearly damaged way too many brain cells back in her druggie days. Leslie, they are just laughing at your predicament with your son and are gleeful that you are disappointed in the results of his treatment. The things you WON'T find on Fornits- compassion, any knowledge about parenting, rational analysis of programs and respectful dialogue. The good news is that the true nature of the forum is so obvious that one quick look sends anyone with any sense of logic running the other way. The posters are there to amuse each other, which really undermines the alleged purpose of exposing abusive or unethical teen programs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posts: 552 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2003  |  Logged: 208.190.39.6 |   "


Bold to show how self absorbed and demented struggling turkeys is (WE DONT CARE ABOUT PARENTS WHY WONT YOU GET THAT YET) and italics for "LOL".

When I posted on there they told me its not about holding programs accountable, its to make parents feel better.

Well, NO FUCKING SHIT? that someone whose hung out on a forum that does nothing but coddle her and make her feel better and rationalize EVERYTHING shes ever done (because there its only about the parents!) is going to feel like we're attacking her when we bring up the facts and criticism without waffley rationalizations for the parents sake, a confirmation bias for program's purported efficitiveness and safety, and the parental sugarcoating and fanatical avoidance of any responsibility or blame ever falling on the parents.

We're not ATTACKING you, we just dont care about making sure you feel as if you did everything right, the program is right, nothing is your fault, and its all the kids fault and the program will make it all feel better butifitwontjustusetheexitplanbecausehe'llmanipualteyou.

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU, ITS NOT PARENT CENTRIC HERE. GROW UP! YOURE FOURTY-FIVE, NOT FIFTEEN, ACT LIKE IT! ::bangin::

You have most assuredly made mistakes and could have done better and have room for improvement now, becuase you're a human being, and no human being is perfect. Got it?

Now, once you learn to accept that, start coming to grips with the fact that you're not a model parent, and its not all about you, its about your CHILD and not your "desired results of his treatment". That statement made me want to retch. That is disgusting. Hes not just a human being, hes YOUR SON, YOUR BLOOD, YOUR PROGENY, NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO ALTER WITH 'TREATMENT' TO MAKE HIM BE THE WAY YOU WANT HIM TO BE! Im not saying that you think of him that way but the poster who made that statement certainly made the impression thats what he or she felt. But Ill drop that subject before I get sick and have to clean off my keyboard.

Regardless, programs are the answer for... the parents, not children, they still are not proven to work and at least piecewise are demonstrated to be ineffective and abusive, respective to what segment of them you're looking at, and have gotten by on excuses, misinformation, empty promises and ignorance for 30 years and still have yet to cough up any substantive proof. Shapiro's bullshit only showed it was ineffective, abusive, and people who had gone through ASR were some 6000% more likely to commit suicide than if they hadn't gone though it, but a nice waffley white-washer like thewho says that becuase shapiro thinks it had potential to be effective it is now. :rofl: I find it funny someone with a physics and mathematics derived nickname would be so clearly biased and self-absorbed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

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more from struggling turkeys (Karen in Dallas wrote this)
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2006, 05:10:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-06-29 23:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"why bother logging in, you will just break down what I say anyway."


If you're so worried about it being "broken down" then why are you saying it?  ::boycott::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2006, 07:15:00 PM »
I am grown up and so much older than you!  You have no idea where I am coming from and what I have gone through, what my son has gone through, and what my son and I have gone through with his Father and his fucking Russian step Mom.  I do understand where you are coming from, I do, but since you are only 21 years old, there is no way you can understand where I am coming from and what my son is feeling right now.  He is doing well right now and that is what I want for him, the very best, and when you have kids someday, then you will understand, perhaps you won't have to go through the mess that my son and I had to go through, perhaps you will have a perfect marriage and a wonderful son or daughter and I hope that you do.  Just understand that nothing in life is perfect and you have to work at all of it all the time.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2006, 07:19:00 PM »
Now, Leslie...why all this cussing about the RUSSIAN WIFE? You have been divorced about 15 years now. Get the fuck (your favorite word) over it!

You don't use the "F" word over on ST, now do you?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2006, 07:21:00 PM »
No one really cares what YOU have gone through. Only concerned about YOU locking your kid up in some program, and trying to justify that.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2006, 08:59:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-30 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am grown up and so much older than you!  You have no idea where I am coming from and what I have gone through, what my son has gone through, and what my son and I have gone through with his Father and his fucking Russian step Mom.  I do understand where you are coming from, I do, but since you are only 21 years old, there is no way you can understand where I am coming from and what my son is feeling right now.  He is doing well right now and that is what I want for him, the very best, and when you have kids someday, then you will understand, perhaps you won't have to go through the mess that my son and I had to go through, perhaps you will have a perfect marriage and a wonderful son or daughter and I hope that you do.  Just understand that nothing in life is perfect and you have to work at all of it all the time.  

"


We don't care what you went through!!! You're 45, look elsewhere to sing a swan song! Your son and a lot of people here have been through a LOT MORE THAN YOU and you're the mature adult here.

You surely cant expect us to care more about what an adult went through with being jilted by her marriage and her own personal shit more than a child thrown into a mindfuck warehouse that didnt help, now can you?

As I already said, ST is a place to go get molly coddled and told what you want to hear. Here, you get a reality check and everyone here is a result of what those programs REALLY do to people. Stop bitching for attention, and act your fucking age.

Everyone here has been through a LOT of shit one way or another. A lot are program survivors - and those your age went through the likes of STRAIGHT from the 80s. Those were closed by court order, and when I tried to bring that up the admins at ST banned me for it. Same for TSW talking about his personal experience working for an abusive program.

These programs are nothing but services to take away your kids, your worries, and blow sunshine up your ass. Well, guess what? I dont really care to blow sunshine up your ass  :lol:  but Ill gladly tell you the TRUTH. Putting that kid in a program was most likely what you did to make yourself feel better and at ease, and now you're trying to justify what you did to your son by throwing him in some TBS you wont even name because of worried YOU felt.

Get real. You're 45, which isn't even middle aged these days, you got a lot of life ahead of you. You shouldn't spend it trying to rationalize throwing your kid in an ineffective, abusive little mindfucking warehouse to a forum of survivors and people trying to close them down becuase of your own personal shit.

You want help? Admit you did something wrong, and get a real therapist, hell I think if you just manned (er, womaned?) up to it here youd get cut some slack. But as long as you try to make it about you, you're gonna get whats coming to you.

"all about me" parents are the reason there are a lot of kids who have been fucked up and grow up trying to stop this abuse from happening, dont be like them.

And if you want to talk personal suffering, I'll gladly tell you all about my bullshit on YIM, but I wont use it to justify me doing something to someone else to make myself feel better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2006, 03:18:00 PM »
"YIM"??????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2006, 08:55:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-30 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am grown up and so much older than you!  You have no idea where I am coming from and what I have gone through, what my son has gone through, and what my son and I have gone through with his Father and his fucking Russian step Mom.  I do understand where you are coming from, I do, but since you are only 21 years old, there is no way you can understand where I am coming from and what my son is feeling right now.  He is doing well right now and that is what I want for him, the very best, and when you have kids someday, then you will understand, perhaps you won't have to go through the mess that my son and I had to go through, perhaps you will have a perfect marriage and a wonderful son or daughter and I hope that you do.  Just understand that nothing in life is perfect and you have to work at all of it all the time.  

"


Get over it, sister.

I'm 39, I do have a kid, and of course I'm not perfect, she's not perfect, my husband is not perfect, and our lives aren't perfect.

Everybody and everything in the world is not perfect.  Got it.  BTDT.

You sound from this post like your kid is currently in a behavior mod facility, so everything else I'm going to say is based on that assumption:

Unless your child is severely retarded or otherwise severely mentally damaged to the point of needing to be institutionalized, or is mentally ill enough to need to be committed even if he was an adult, or is in a responsible (100 days or less) drug rehab program, or was court ordered after a criminal conviction, you have no damned business sticking your kid in a facility.

Even then, behavior modification facilities are for no one.  They're a bad solution looking for a problem.

For every other problem, community based outpatient care has the best outcomes.

For drug rehab, community based care also has the best outcome percentages, but inpatient rehab works for some people---if it's more than 100 days, though, you're being sold a pile of crap.

If you put your kid in a behavior mod facility, then you screwed up by the numbers no matter who you are.

That's the cold, hard truth.

It's not a personal attack, it's just the truth of the best available research with the best percentages for the best results.

Contending otherwise is as out of sync with reality as joining the flat earth society.

Contending otherwise is understandable, since the behavioral mod. facilities talk a good game and, like faith healers, they can do a bang up job of making you think they've helped you.

Understandable, but factually incorrect.

I get that it sucks bigtime to screw up by the numbers in such a major part of care for your child.

Regardless of how much it would suck to admit that, you screwed up.

It doesn't make you a bad person, but you did make a bad choice.

Regardless of what you may believe, a behavior mod facility has not helped your son.  They may have presented a convincing illusion, to you, of having helped your son.  Your son may appear more compliant, or may be better at hiding his problems from you.  Your son may have matured some while he was there as part of the natural teenage growth process---maturation that would have happpened no matter where your kid was, and would have happened to a greater extent.

Most program parents at this point would say, "You don't know that."  Yes, I do.  I've looked at the available research for the various kinds of problems these facilities claim to serve.  I am trained enough to interpret that research and know what's sound research and what the various reports mean.  If your child did in fact improve more than some other kid(s) somewhere, it was pure chance--not the Program.  More likely, he improved *less* than he would have elsewhere and, like many other program parents, you are now seeing a fleeting illusion of improvement that conceals the same problems plus permanent psychological damage caused by the program.

Yes, I do know that.  The numbers don't lie.  

Again, even though kids come out of programs along a broad spectrum of outcomes, where the kid is on that spectrum is a statistical roll of the dice, not a benefit of the Program.

It's just like when the FDA studies give some patients a placebo, after the study period of time, the patients come out along a broad spectrum of outcomes---even though the placebo hasn't done a damn thing for them.

The only way you know if a new drug works better than a placebo, or better than an existing drug on the market, is to look at the overall statistics.

By the overall statistics, behavior mod facilities work equal to or worse than nothing at all.  They do no good, and frequently do harm.

Community based care, on the other hand, works.  You have kids coming out of that care along a broad range of outcomes, like anything else.  However, we know it works because the overall statistics of those outcomes show real improvement.

You screwed up.

Be a good enough parent to admit your mistake, to stop doing something that doesn't work, to determine if your son has grown up enough on his own or still needs some help.  If so, be responsible enough to switch to a kind of care that actually works.

Right now, you're being the equivalent of the Christian Science parent who's got the preacher praying over their kid in the hospital from a car wreck instead of letting a doctor give the kid a transfusion.

The preacher may look to you like he's helping your kid.  Your kid may feel good about being prayed over, or you may feel comforted by the prayers.  Your kid may even pull through and get well--by blind chance and the body's healing processes.  But his chances sure would be better if you would eject the preacher from the kid's room and let the doc give junior a transfusion.

Julie
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Offline Curious & Willing to

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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2006, 10:05:00 PM »
Julie, in your opinion, you think I "screwed up", in my opinion, and everyone else around me, I did not screw up.  You have your opinion and I have mine, as well as my son has his opinion, and he says I did not "screw up" as you put it above.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2006, 10:22:00 PM »
That opinion is utterly irrelevant given the fact that:
  • your kid still smokes pot...
  • ...and gambles
  • youre still astranged from him
  • the ST jerks are more worried about him 'manipulating you' than you and him having a good mother/son relationship.
:roll: the OBJECTIVE determination of mine given those facts? Complete and total failure on the part of ST as anything but a shrill greek chorus trying to inject their nonsense into you, complete and total failure of the "program", and you have failed to clean up the mess the "TBS" has caused, and the mess you created following ST's advice.

Or, vernacular terms, a giant clusterfuck of your sons upbringing and your relationship with him. Sure, nobody wants to admit they were wrong or that YOU were wrong, when they have vested interst in being 'right' (though not necessarily correct) but what are the facts demonstrating here?

Your son is no better, except he made a friend while in a psycho prison you put him in, missed out on the best years of his life and the social and personal development that should have gone along with it, and youre stil terrified of him and listening to that damn gaggle of gooks trying to make themselves feel better under Lon's wing.

WTF do you want me to do, tell you that you did everything you could? That it was the best thing to do? That you did everything right and didnt mess up? Are you REALLY more worried about making yourself feel better than everything else going on right now?

Leslie, all that shit the program said was just to make you buy into it, its not true, and the reality of that is abundantly clear. Its not about you or the program or struggling turkeys anymore, its about your son, and you can't just throw him away somewhere anymore. You AND him have to grow up now and you're hurting yourself almost as much as him listening to all that toughlove bullshit.[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-07-01 19:23 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »
Leslie, IF everything if just FINE, and sending Greg to a program was the CORRECT and GOOD THING TO DO---then WHY ARE YOU HERE still talking about it?
Why aren't you just going on with your life, helping Greg to get settled into college, and just NOT TALKING ABOUT IT ANYMORE?

MOST NORMAL PARENTS don't sit around on the internet a few weeks after their son graduates from high school---DISCUSSING their son's drug problems, gambling addiction, raving about the "bitch, Russian step-mother, who won't allow the kid inside her house," slamming the EX-husband you haven't been married to for about 15 years, OR discussing thier own psychological problems--down to listing their daily meds!

MOST NORMAL PARENTS may announce that their kid graduated, and is headed off to college. That's about it.

YOU choose to have your son escorted to a wilderness program. YOU choose to blow the kid's college fund on a treatment program.

Well, guess what?
The behavior modification treatment didn't change shit. Your son is still drugging and gambling. YOU posted you are still afraid of his abusive behavior.
The kid is living with his paternal grandparents--so the EX must not be all that bad, if his parents allow this boy to live with them.
YOU SEEM TO BE THE PROBLEM.
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Offline Curious & Willing to

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« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2006, 11:07:00 PM »
Well, thanks for your response!

My son and I are not astranged, he calls me, and he asked for help on some summer job applications, and I did help him.  We also chatted online yesterday.  

He was not in a "psycho prison" as you put it, and I have posted elsewhere on this site about that. You mention that he has "missed out on the best years of his life and the social" life, but he really didn't,(he went to a local high school and participated in activities there and made guy and girl friends at the HS as well) as if he had been here, he wasn't in high school to have those years.

I am not terrified of him, as you said.  I am not even thinking about making myself better as you also said in your post, I am fine,(I will do for myself what I need to do and my son will do what he needs to do and what he wants to do). I can only hope that he will make good decisions, and my son is doing fine, and he is where he wants to be.  He told me that he wants to live where he is, that he can't live here at our home, because of the people that he had to avoid here while he was here for a week.  No, I am totally not perfect, and never will be, nobody is perfect.  I know my son will make some good choices, and some bad choices, but he will have to learn from those bad choices.   I am not throwing my son away somewhere.  I am not like his Father or other parents who feel that when their kids reach the age of 18, they are on their own.  I will always be there for my son, if he needs me, all he has to do is ask.  I will not tell him what to do anymore, just suggest things if he asks.  

As far as my son still smoking, and/or smoking pot, he threw out what he had before he left, and I have no idea if he is smoking pot where he is, because he doesn't have any friends there (he will make friends easily there or at college), and his cousins who are in their college years do not smoke pot.  

All for now.

Leslie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2006, 11:17:00 PM »
You aren't working Leslie.
Why don't you move somewhere that Gregg would be safe?
YOU have no idea who does or does not smoke pot.
No one knows what other people do, or don't do.

I want you to grow up, and stop criticizing this boy's father publicly. It only makes people respect this father. THE FATHER didn't send this boy to a program: you did.  You posted that the boy's father only found out after-the-fact.
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Offline Curious & Willing to

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« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2006, 12:33:00 AM »
yes, he found out after my son was gone, and he told me"finally you did something right for our son". (If he felt this way, why didn't he say something a long time ago, or do something about it, but no, he did not)  I am not bashing the Father, although he deserves it, what Father won't stand up to his Wife of 8 or 9 years and say, this is my son, and he needs to be here in our house, but he didn't and moved my son out of his house 2 years ago, did it hurt my son, of course it did.
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