Vulcan Challenge - Fire Element

[Troll Control]

HLA has one person doing the supervision of all their counselors. That is an impossible situation and a detriment to the kids. Dr. Buccellato will never put forth the money that it would take to properly supervise all of the counselors at HLA.

You said a mouthful there, Jack.

Yet another ex-staffer corroborating what I'm saying.  We can't all be wrong...

[Deborah]

Who decides what the ?issue? is and presents the challenge? Licensed, un-licensed?

Who makes the assessment that the kid is stable enough to divulge intimate details of a rape or any other abuse, or ready to challenge a long standing fear or insecurity?

What happens if they crash and burn, and more humiliation is heaped on what already exsisted?
What genre of therapy does this "exercise" come from?

What were you taught in college about forcing patients to divulge sensitive material in front of their peers?

How were you trained by HLA?

Who's approval is required before a challenge is issued?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-08 09:21:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

HLA has one person doing the supervision of all their counselors. That is an impossible situation and a detriment to the kids. Dr. Buccellato will never put forth the money that it would take to properly supervise all of the counselors at HLA.

You said a mouthful there, Jack.



Yet another ex-staffer corroborating what I'm saying.  We can't all be wrong...
"

Whether Right or Wrong, I beleive your are dead on the money, HLA is banking that you and everyone here is not going to make a difference. Until the press gets involved , or a mass parental come to jesus meeting with school or a lawsuit happens HLA is banking on you will not make a difference.

you want to hurt HLA , hit thier referal source, the consultants. Start a negative campaign to education the press in each of their home towns and get corroberation from ed con that have seen the truth, the kocerecks, Ann Carol Price, BJ hopper, mary consoli, cammi burtrams of the world.  

Then you shall have an impact.

[AtomicAnt]

Thanks Deborah, You ran with where I was going and you know more about it.

These 'challenges' are not really therapeutic. So what if she saw herself differently for a time? Who cares? These exercises appear to work because they elicit a strong emotional response.  What they don't do is provide any kind of tools that a person can incorporate into long term growth and change.

Now that Deborah brings in the story of a rape victim forced to recount the trauma, she has confirmed my suspicions. This is still just confrontational therapy. Confrontational Therapy (or attack therapy) was discredited 30 years ago as being harmful.

[Anonymous]

I would love to read any studies that you know of that discredit confrontation in therapy.  Please  let me know your source, or sources, so that we can all become more educated on the topic.

Also, do you see confrontation and skillfull challenging as the same thing in therapy?

[Troll Control]

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm

"Attack therapy is an outgrowth of ventilation therapy. Here the patient becomes the subject of verbal abuse, denunciation, and humiliation. This assault may come either from the therapist in individual session, or from peers in a group context.... As one critic put it, 'Tact is "out" and brutal frankness is "in." Any phony, defensive or evasive behavior... is fair game for... critique and verbal attack."

Sitting on the hot seat and verbal confrontation emerged from "human potential" centers, and were used extensively in LGATs:

"Another variant of the confrontation therapies appeared in the commercially sold large group awareness training programs such as Mind Dynamics... and Lifespring..... Marketed to individuals, organizations, and business and industry as experiential education, they typically use powerful psychological and social influence techniques, not always bringing about the advertised claims of success and profit to the buyer, and sometimes bringing psychological distress to the clients" (Pp. 113-114).

It is noteworthy to mention that every single program that uses "seminars," "propheets," "marathons," "workshops" - call them what you will - employs harmful derivations of the Lifespring LGATs, a concept that was completely discredited by mental health professionals decades ago.

Also, do you see confrontation and skillfull challenging as the same thing in therapy?

No trained therapist would view these two concepts as similar.

[Anonymous]

In regards to the difference between confrontation and skillfull chanllenging, I sometimes think that confrontation is what people think entirely goes on at Hidden Lake, and in the early days I would tend to agree.  While I was at Hidden Lake, I saw both.  Again, this is why any program like this needs experienced, licensed therapist.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-09 05:59:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm



"Attack therapy is an outgrowth of ventilation therapy. Here the patient becomes the subject of verbal abuse, denunciation, and humiliation. This assault may come either from the therapist in individual session, or from peers in a group context.... As one critic put it, 'Tact is "out" and brutal frankness is "in." Any phony, defensive or evasive behavior... is fair game for... critique and verbal attack."



Sitting on the hot seat and verbal confrontation emerged from "human potential" centers, and were used extensively in LGATs:



"Another variant of the confrontation therapies appeared in the commercially sold large group awareness training programs such as Mind Dynamics... and Lifespring..... Marketed to individuals, organizations, and business and industry as experiential education, they typically use powerful psychological and social influence techniques, not always bringing about the advertised claims of success and profit to the buyer, and sometimes bringing psychological distress to the clients" (Pp. 113-114).



It is noteworthy to mention that every single program that uses "seminars," "propheets," "marathons," "workshops" - call them what you will - employs harmful derivations of the Lifespring LGATs, a concept that was completely discredited by mental health professionals decades ago.

Also, do you see confrontation and skillfull challenging as the same thing in therapy?

No trained therapist would view these two concepts as similar.
"

Though I agree with some of the things stated in this paper, it is not a scientific study as much as it is an opinion.  Again, I think(and this is just my opinion, not scientific) these exercises can be either good or bad depending on the professional that is facilitating them.  It is not the type of therapy as much as it is the ones facilitating it.  This brings us back to the point that Len Buccellato will never spend the money it will take, nor create the type of healthy work environment it will take, to attract and keep people that can effectively pull off this type of therapy.

[Troll Control]

Again, I think(and this is just my opinion, not scientific) these exercises can be either good or bad depending on the professional that is facilitating them

I guess we just disagree professionally here.  I really see no benefit from these exercises.  Even if there is some benefit when facilitated by educated, experienced therapists, it surely isn't the best method available - not by a long shot.

This brings us back to the point that Len Buccellato will never spend the money it will take, nor create the type of healthy work environment it will take, to attract and keep people that can effectively pull off this type of therapy.

Now this we can agree on...

[RobertBruce]

In my time there if an inmate did not perform their vulcan challenge up to snuff they were automatically dropped.

[Anonymous]

I had to do a a Vulcan Challenge. I wasn't allowed to go hom if I refused. I had to sing and dance to some song by 10,000 Maniacs and I didn't feel any better for it, I felt like a total asshole.
I don't blame HLA though. I blame the parents. Or atleast, I blame my parents. When a 13 year old acts out, it's because they want their mommy and daddy. Don't pump them full of meds and send them up the river because you don't have the time to deal with it. Get plugged in to your child's life
When I got out of HLA, I found out that both of my parents smoke crack. Really.. I think that might be the real reason I got sent away.
Don't get me wrong though, HLA is a crazy mixed up place. The only thing it gave me was bragging rights.

[Anonymous]

My name is Alex Cohen, PG 31 (from above)

[Badpuppy]

On 2006-06-09 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-09 05:59:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:


"http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm





"Attack therapy is an outgrowth of ventilation therapy. Here the patient becomes the subject of verbal abuse, denunciation, and humiliation. This assault may come either from the therapist in individual session, or from peers in a group context.... As one critic put it, 'Tact is "out" and brutal frankness is "in." Any phony, defensive or evasive behavior... is fair game for... critique and verbal attack."





Sitting on the hot seat and verbal confrontation emerged from "human potential" centers, and were used extensively in LGATs:





"Another variant of the confrontation therapies appeared in the commercially sold large group awareness training programs such as Mind Dynamics... and Lifespring..... Marketed to individuals, organizations, and business and industry as experiential education, they typically use powerful psychological and social influence techniques, not always bringing about the advertised claims of success and profit to the buyer, and sometimes bringing psychological distress to the clients" (Pp. 113-114).





It is noteworthy to mention that every single program that uses "seminars," "propheets," "marathons," "workshops" - call them what you will - employs harmful derivations of the Lifespring LGATs, a concept that was completely discredited by mental health professionals decades ago.

Also, do you see confrontation and skillfull challenging as the same thing in therapy?

No trained therapist would view these two concepts as similar.

"

Though I agree with some of the things stated in this paper, it is not a scientific study as much as it is an opinion.  Again, I think(and this is just my opinion, not scientific) these exercises can be either good or bad depending on the professional that is facilitating them.  It is not the type of therapy as much as it is the ones facilitating it.  This brings us back to the point that Len Buccellato will never spend the money it will take, nor create the type of healthy work environment it will take, to attract and keep people that can effectively pull off this type of therapy."

Artificially manufactured attacks, where an attack is part of an encounter exercise is inappropriate for incarcerated juveniles. Juveniles attack each other enough in group encounters without having to make a game of it. What they need to develop is emphathy, compassion and support for each other. It is in fact TACT that they need to learn. They need to learn a skill set that allows them to give and recieve criticism without alienating their social and business relationships. They need to learn how to pick up social cues without being hit by a blunt object. They need to learn how to experientially relate to the people in their social environment. They need to learn how to express vulnerability, and that vulerability can be turned into a strenth. They need to learn the value of humor and self-deprication in expressing an idea. Attack exercises are counterproductive for the needs of this population. When you start playing attack games the group proccess itself becomes less real, and more distant-- in essence just another way to manipulate, con, and get over.

[Anonymous]

Alex, you may blame your parents, but not all parents are crack smoking missing persons. The parent cannot live the child's life, in any case. They should be as involved as possible, and I agree that a lot of the issue is parents "not having enough time to deal with it". But children out of control, and they can be, is a mindbending thing to most parents. You can say you are there until you are blue in the face, the kids rarely tell you what is really up, you have to see behind the scenes, and that is personally invasive. Much of being a teen is exploring boundaries, I explored plenty myself. It seems to me that today the boundaries are often ignored wholesale, and the parents feel helpless.

Places like HLA *appear*to offer the parents a solution. I am not defending it at all...but that is what it looks like when you are in the maelstrom. When the child "acting out" is destroying the family, and all it has and stands for, the parents have to take some action, they must. It is only after your child is incarcerated there, that you begin to understand just how far they go to isolate the child from you. The warning should be in the papers you sign. Sadly, I think many parents want relief so much, they will sign anything, and pray that it works. I know in my case, the child was deeply loved by all involved.

I hope you can understand the anguish a parent can have in the aftermath of this. Would that life be more simple at times.

As for the Vulcan Challenge, I think that kind of approach can work for some, but the persons initiating the requirement need to be absolutely sure it's right for the child involved, because so many kids can be damaged by it as well. I sure would have been, had I been subjected to anything like that. I would have done anything I could to get out of it, I know exactly what you mean, feeling like a "total asshole". Been there.

Once again, highly skilled, caring,empathatic therapists are needed, and my experience was that they weren't there when needed at HLA.

When a 13 yr. old acts out, do you really think it is usually because they want mommy and daddy? I have been thinking about that since you posted it.

[Deborah]

***It is only after your child is incarcerated there, that you begin to understand just how far they go to isolate the child from you. The warning should be in the papers you sign.

The degree of isolation from parents and family was a red flag for me and all the professionals I consulted with.
I received a call out of the blue when my ex enrolled our son wihtout my knowledge. As they ourlined the rules for contact I was shocked. I asked if they were a psychiatric hospital. No, a therapeutic boarding school.
Then how could they sever contact between my son and I without a court order?
They had dx'd him with ODD based on his father's complaints.
The rest of the horrid, two year nightmare is posted in this forum.

What happened to make you question this policy? When did it dawn on you that they were isolating your child from you?

Since I never saw the contract my ex signed, what do parents agree to?