Author Topic: Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?  (Read 1389 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« on: February 27, 2006, 09:02:00 AM »
Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?

By Lindsey Tanner
ASSOCIATED PRESS

February 27, 2006

CHICAGO ? For years, millions of Americans have spent billions of dollars on alternative remedies with unproven effects. Now, rigorous science is starting to test those treatments and mostly finds them lacking.

Last week, major government-funded research indicated that two popular arthritis pills, glucosamine and chondroitin, did no better than dummy pills at relieving mild arthritis pain.


Another study this month revealed negative results for saw palmetto to treat prostate problems; last July, ditto for echinacea and the common cold. Those followed similar disappointments for St. John's wort to treat major depression, and powdered shark cartilage for some cancers.

Yet despite the U.S. government's multimillion-dollar investment to scientifically scrutinize a little regulated $20 billion-a-year industry, the big question is, do the results really matter when so many consumers swear by these remedies?

?I'll wrestle anybody who says it's no good,? Carl Haupt, 79, says of glucosamine and chondroitin, pills he credits with helping him resume mountain hiking, a hobby he quit seven years ago because of arthritis pain.

Haupt spends about $25 monthly on the pills. Debilitating pain returned when he quit taking them once, and he said the government's results won't change his mind.

?I wouldn't quit taking it again. I learned my lesson,? Haupt said.

Even the researchers themselves, funded by the National Institutes of Health, say their results don't necessarily mean consumers are pouring money down the drain.

?If someone tells me this is working for them, I'm not going to tell them not to take it,? said Dr. Thomas Schnitzer, a Northwestern University arthritis specialist and co-author of the glucosamine/chondroitin study.

That's partly because the three most recent studies found no real harm; also, in some cases, the results are not completely clear-cut.

For example, while most people taking the arthritis pills in the study got no significant benefit, the pills did appear to help those with more severe pain. And critics of the echinacea study say different doses might have found a benefit in fighting colds.


Associated Press
Richard Peterson said he won't stop taking glucosamine and chondroitin for his arthritis even though a recent study showed the pills have no significant effect.
Also, studying these herbs and extracts is far more challenging than researching prescription drugs, which are subject to Food and Drug Administration scrutiny. Alternative health products with the same name can have vastly different ingredients and potencies, and research results from one may not apply to others, said Gail Mahady, a botanicals researcher at the University of Illinois at Chicago. She was not involved in the federal studies.

But an additional important factor is what scientists call the placebo effect ? meaning that just thinking you're taking something useful can make you think there's a benefit.

Imaging tests have shown changes in the brains of placebo users, suggesting that the effect is not just ?in your mind,? it's also in the brain, said Dr. Stephen Straus, director of NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

?Their wishful thinking that they're going to get better is harnessing the body's own mechanism for relieving pain,? said Straus, whose agency was formed seven years ago to stringently test non-conventional remedies.

The placebo effect was huge in patients unknowingly taking dummy pills in the arthritis study and could have overshadowed any potential benefit from the real pills.

But it's also likely that the placebo effect contributes to benefits that many people say they get from alternative remedies, and it's something doctors shouldn't dismiss, said Dr. Anthony Miksanek, a family physician in rural southern Illinois who has many arthritis patients on glucosamine and chondroitin.

?My thought is if you give somebody a pill and say this may help you,? that might be the spark they need to ?get out and do more things, walk more,? or get more exercise, all of which can help relieve arthritis pain, said Miksanek, of Benton, Ill.

?Maybe it's a message of hope . . . and the brain kind of takes that and runs with it,? he said.

Barrie Cassileth, an alternative medicine researcher at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, said some products, including echinacea and St. John's wort, can interfere with conventional medicine and should not be considered harmless.

But others, including saw palmetto, are cheaper and have fewer side effects than prescription medicine. ?If the results that people swear by work by placebo, who cares?? she asks.

Some data suggest that more than one-third of Americans use alternative medicine, and many remedies are even more popular abroad.

Ben Pratt, a spokesman for the General Nutrition Centers, a national chain of stores that sell nutritional supplements, said sales of echinacea remain strong and were not affected by last summer's negative study.

Some consumers use alternative medicine because of safety concerns about prescription drugs, including reports of heart problems that doomed the once-popular arthritis drug Vioxx. Others mistrust the medical establishment because it bombards them with contradictory studies.

?You can just wait long enough and someone else will have an opposite opinion,? said Richard Peterson, 62, a Baltimore property manager who says he won't stop taking glucosamine.

But even if some consumers ignore the results, the rigorous government studies are extremely useful for doctors seeking to rely on more than word of mouth, Miksanek said.

Miksanek said now he can tell patients with minor arthritis pain that the pills may not work for everybody while offering more hopeful advice to patients with more severe pain.

Straus, of the NIH's alternative medicine center, says his agency is committed to continuing research on supplements. The center's research budget has steadily grown to $107.7 million for fiscal year 2005.

?I think that consumers should pay attention, understanding that a single study may not provide the final answer,? he said.
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Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 10:31:00 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2006, 10:58:00 AM »
It costs about $800,000,000 to bring a new drug through the regulatory process. If there's not an $800M market for the prepared, normalized pharmaceutical product, nobody's going to invest the money.

On the other hand, once the money's spent and the pharma co has investors to pay, they'll often lie like a cheap rug and even hire very expensive lobbyists to keep help the lid on that.

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.  
-- Hunter S. Thompson

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline try another castle

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »
I'm of two minds on this issue.

1. I try to keep away from most untested, unregulated remedies, (especially the fat burners) because there is no telling whether or not it is dangerous. I am not impressed when a label says it is "all natural." Dude, nightshade is all natural. Doesn't mean I'm going to crush it up into a pill and take it. Most of these remedies I simply think are a bunch of hooey, so I don't bother.

2. Psychosomatic is still somatic. Regardless of the medical validity of the substance, if the placebo works for you, then go for it. For a while I was taking melatonin for a sleep aid, and there is research which states that it really doesn't do anything. Well, it still helped me, so I continued to take it. The effect was most likely psychosomatic, but the important thing was that it helped me sleep. (Furthermore, it's cheap, so I'm not losing a whole bunch of money on a placebo.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2006, 01:46:00 PM »
Yup, placebos are great. Mind of matter.
People can't do it without taking or doing
something. Too bad we can't just think
our way to optimum health.

Whoever could, or would, develop the
"Home kit, placebo identification and
delivery system" would leave Bill Gates
in the dust.

The contribution to humans would be
stunning.

The problem is ... how would one do this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2006, 01:48:00 PM »
I have noticed that just about all natural
remedies that come in a pill form are
priced at a dollar a day, or $30 buck
a month.

Check it out, you will probably notice also.

I guess that is sales and marketing. It
must be what the sellers have determined
that the seekers will spend.

Just noticed it, that is all, not a commentary.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2006, 03:18:00 PM »
I stumbled across a little niche wherein some unprofitable alternative remedies and cures get a little scrutiny by mainstream medicine. When they perceive one of them to be some kind of problem, then they'll look into it. When I went looking for info on milk thistle for my kid, I x-refed the drugs she was taking. Found one decent looking study report about it and it was written by one of her doctors (these guys are really world class) On the one hand, I was glad to know what they had found. On the other, I was a little pissed that he hadn't just told me what he knew when I asked him in clinic weeks prior. Why did I have to go to the trouble of looking it up if he could have said "Oh yeah, I looked into that, here's why we should hold off on it for now."

Basically, milk thistle is proven safe and effective in it's natural form UNLESS you're taking certain drugs where minute titration is a vital issue. While it is better than the prescription non-toxic liver acids at cleaning out ones liver and does seem to encourage liver tissue regeneration, it also elevates the levels of certain other substances by limiting kidney function.

That's where the story ends, as far as that particular team is concerned. No further research into whether it hurt kidneys or just limited funcion by some other mechanism, the entire focus of the study seemed to be 'is this herb safe for our kids who are using these drugs' and the answer was no.

They also looked into the practice of drinking quantities of grapefruit juice in order to amplify the effects of certain drugs. Again, not a bad idea for some patients, Not Good® for patients who are titrating based on single ppm of blood volume.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline try another castle

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 03:34:00 PM »
That reminds me. I can't drink grapefruit juice because of one of the meds I take. (I can't remember which one.) Weird. I also can't take ibuprophen. (Fine by me, since I prefer acetamenaphine.) But sucks if I have muscle pain.

One of the natural remedies that they have done some research on and has been proven to help in areas such as heart health and depression is fish oil. Too bad it's so stinky. Even the good variety that my doctor recommended was still stinky. I'm not a big fan of fish-burps.
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Offline Deborah

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2006, 03:36:00 PM »
As for the cost ($1/day marketing).... That is not my experience. Of course it depends on how much you're taking and where you purchase them, but at the daily recommended dosages:

Hawthorne- 100/2.99=  .12/cay
Echinacea- 100/4.00 = .16/day
Glucosamine & Chondroitin- 120/19.19 = .32/day
St John?s Wort- 100/6.59 = .26/day
Pygeum & Saw Palmetto- 120/17.39 = .29/day

If you're paying $1.00/day, you should shop around!

From Dr Andrew Weil:

Echinacea, obtained from the roots of several species of that genus, is a natural antibiotic and immune-system enhancer from the Native American herbal tradition. Echinacea is familiar to gardeners as purple cone flower, an ornamental plant. It grows wild throughout the plains of North America and is now extensively cultivated as a medicinal. Practitioners of natural medicine in Europe and America have long valued it. In recent years research, done mostly in Germany, has confirmed its antiviral, antibacterial, and immunity-enhancing properties?.
http://www.drweil.com/u/Article/A105/

Saw palmetto(Serenoa repens). There is clinical evidence that Saw palmetto can help shrink the size of the prostate, and it may help promote healthy prostate function. You should inform your health care practitioner you are using this product.
http://www.drweil.com/u/HC/HCA216/
Take saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), which can protect the prostate from excess testosterone and promote shrinkage of the gland.
http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA354927/

St. John's Wort probably acts in the nervous system as an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor), but unlike other SSRIs such as Prozac and Zoloft, it affects additional neurotransmitters as well. Therefore, when taken with SSRIs or other mood-altering drugs, it may cause causing serotonin syndrome (overload). St. John's Wort should not simply be added to an existing pharmaceutical regimen, especially if taking other anti-depressants. Women using birth control pills. those taking Inadivir for HIV or those taking cyclosporine should avoid St. John's Wort. In addition, patients being treated with anti-arrythmics such as Digoxin (Lanoxin) or taking blood-thinning medications such as Coumadin should not use St. John's Wort.
http://www.drweil.com/u/Article/H18/

St. John's wort is an herbal remedy that has long been used in Europe as a treatment for mood disorders. Standardized extracts have shown an effectiveness equaling Prozac in the treatment of mild to moderate forms of the disease. It should not be taken with anti-retroviral medications, birth control pills, or antidepressant medications, especially SSRIs like Prozac or Celexa.
http://www.drweil.com/u/HC/HCA211/

Glucosamine and Chondroitin  According to Jason Theodosakis, MD, author of The Arthritis Cure, the book that popularized the use of the supplements glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate for the treatment of osteoarthritis, there are no clinical studies showing that taking glucosamine or chondroitin causes an increase in blood sugar or insulin levels. However, recent animal studies as well as some anecdotal evidence have suggested that glucosamine might increase insulin resistance and therefore could be harmful to diabetics.
Although glucosamine is derived from glucose, the two substances are not chemically the same and follow different metabolic pathways in the body. On his website Dr. Theodosakis maintains that even if glucose and glucosamine were the same, the amount of glucose in a daily dose of glucosamine is less than you would find in a single grape or orange slice. He cites results of a three-year, placebo-controlled study which found that participants using glucosamine actually showed decreases in fasting glucose levels compared with those taking a placebo. Dr. Theodosakis has established the National Glucosamine and Chondroitin Reporting Center to track anecdotal symptoms believed to be due to these supplements. I checked the website to see what side effects are being reported. The tabulations on the site haven?t been updated, but the side effects that were reported most frequently are indigestion and excessive gas. Three people reported elevated blood sugar levels. However, just because someone reports a symptom while taking a supplement doesn't necessarily mean that the supplement was the cause.
The evidence linking glucosamine to an increase in blood glucose levels is not strong. But if you have type 2 diabetes and want to take glucosamine and chondroitin to relieve your arthritis symptoms, be sure that the physician managing your diabetes is aware that you?re taking these supplements and closely monitors your glucose levels after going on them. http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA30265/

On Vioxx:  http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA346310/

Drug Interactions: For the most part, I think warnings about interactions between herbs and drugs are overstated. For example, a few years ago the American Society of Anesthesiologists warned that certain herbs and supplements could pose a hazard to patients undergoing surgery. The group claimed that several herbs have anti-blood-clotting activity and conceivably could interfere with clotting during and after surgery. St. John?s wort was also singled out in 2003 as an agent that could diminish the effectiveness of certain drugs because of its effect on enzyme systems involved in drug metabolism. (Many pharmaceutical drugs have the same effect.)
In general, I think you?re pretty safe taking most supplements, but you certainly should tell your doctor about anything you?re taking regularly, particularly if you?re also taking either prescription or over-the-counter drugs. Here?s a quick rundown of some commonly used supplements and drugs that could interact to your detriment:
?St. John?s wort: May affect metabolism of antidepressants; HIV protease inhibitors used to treat HIV/AIDS; digoxin, a heart medication; theophylline, used to treat asthma; cyclosporine, an immunosuppressant; chemotherapy; birth control pills (it may reduce their effectiveness); the blood pressure and heart disease medications nifedipine and diltiazem; Coumadin, a blood-thinner; and non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors for HIV/AIDS treatment.
?Co-enzyme Q10, dong quai, feverfew, garlic, ginger, ginkgo, ginseng, vitamin E and St. John?s wort: May increase the risk of bleeding if you?re taking prescription anticoagulants such as Coumadin.
?Echinacea: May increase levels of HIV protease inhibitors used to treat HIV/AIDS, calcium channel blockers used to treat high blood pressure, and anti-anxiety drugs.
?Capsicum (red pepper, cayenne pepper): May increase the absorption and effect of ACE inhibitors used to treat high blood pressure, heart failure and kidney disease; theophylline (for asthma); sedatives; and antidepressants.
?Garlic: May decrease the effectiveness of immunosuppressant drugs and HIV protease inhibitors. It also may reduce the need for insulin among diabetics (by lowering blood sugar).
?Ginkgo: May increase the amount of antidepressant drugs in your blood; may cause seizures when combined with anti-psychotic drugs.
?Ginseng: Can cause headache, trembling and manic behavior when combined with the antidepressant Nardil; may interfere with the action of the heart medication digoxin; may reduce blood sugar levels in people with Type II diabetes, thus affecting the need for insulin or other medication for diabetes.
http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA347717/
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Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2006, 03:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-27 12:36:00, Deborah wrote:

"As for the cost ($1/day marketing)....

If you're paying $1.00/day, you should shop around!


Thanks, I had become de-motivated!
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Offline Anonymous

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Alternative cure researchers unimpressed, but who cares?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2006, 03:49:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-27 12:34:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

Fish oil.


Yes, and I have noticed that it is recommended now
on lots of psychiatric protocols, as well as heart!

I wonder how this one got through the research barrier
to get so accepted as a solid recommendation?

It would be interesting?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »