Author Topic: HELP AT ANY COST - is Available today!  (Read 4835 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2006, 10:16:00 PM »
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On 2006-02-17 16:03:00, Tonkatsu wrote:

"Rudy B. was not a skidrow drunk...just your basic socially accepted alcoholic.  Couldn't get through the day without his scotch.  Right, Rudy?  You remember your Johnnie Walker (on a good day) with your Ranier Ale chasers??  Ooops.  I forgot.  You have no memory pre-Cedu.  Or shall I say selective memory?  "


Huh?
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Offline Tonkatsu

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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 03:37:00 AM »
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On 2006-02-17 10:38:00, Eudora wrote:

"Listening to it again, Richard Reese says his son wasn't really fucking up, they were just paranoid that he might start any minute. Then in the next breath he describes shipping him off as an extreme sort of move. WTF??? And, of course, neither programmed parent can get Maia's name right. Reese refers to her as Andrea. Did he have her mixed up w/ Andrea from PFRR, maybe?



Next guy calls her Ms. Sullivan????



In case you guys are reading here, please take a little advice. Skip the next couple of seminars and toughlove parent hategroup meetings. Catch up on some sleep. Seek out information and opinions other than program propaganda. Here's an idea actually read the book before commenting on the issue. Maia has done her homework. She's not a layman gadfly like I am and she's not directly involved in the industry as you are. She's a bona fied, qualified and respected investigative journalist, specializing in drug treatment and health issues.



Rudy Bentz, otoh, has as his only credential the same as Chuck Dederich, Joe Ricci and Art Barker; they all were skidrow drunks or junkies who became evangelical cult gurus. That's it. That's their entire claim to expertise.





We will make mistakes. Learning from them doesn't make us heros. It only gives us a passing grade on the evolutionary scale.
http://fornits.com/wwf/' target='_new'>Antigen


"


The Rudy B. post was in response to this.  Sorry about the lack of proper sequence.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2006, 07:42:00 AM »
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I guess you don't have kids younger than your daughter, huh?

Yes, I do.

Thanks for the links, I'll check it out.

I think her name was Stephanie, the social worker, who nailed it on the head when she said that most cases it is a family problem, not just one or two kids.  She didnt get much time to expanded on her thoughts.  Too bad the show wasnt longer.

Richard and Reese were both scheduled, I believe, the rest were random or prescreened calls.  I would have liked to have heard more of Richards' story but they were running out of time and shut him off.  It seemed his position was not a failed staff member but more of a systemic problem at the place he went to, straight, where he saw system wide abuse condoned from the top down.  I would be interested to know if the school has softened since he went or if this book will make a difference in adressing that place.
Reeses story didnt suprise me
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 11:02:00 AM »
Please never use Straight and school in the same sentence, Thanks :exclaim:
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2006, 11:32:00 AM »
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On 2006-02-18 04:42:00, TheWho wrote:

"
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EudoraI guess you don't have kids younger than your daughter, huh?

Yes, I do.

And did she have to attend seminars and group meetings as well? I can give you an earful about the role of younger brothers and sisters and how it effects family ties in the long run.

Quote

Thanks for the links, I'll check it out.
Enjoy!

Quote

I think her name was Stephanie, the social worker, who nailed it on the head when she said that most cases it is a family problem, not just one or two kids.  She didnt get much time to expanded on her thoughts.  Too bad the show wasnt longer.

Yeah, well, there are a couple of ways to spin that too. I think the LSWs and licensed psrinks have all the good intentions in the world when they recomend family counseling. However, if the organization to which the family turns for help is one of these cultish ones, that just means everybody joins the cult or leaves the family. Remember what Maia said about the Bacons? You'll get a more complete picture when you read the book. She actually went out and interviewed them in their home, got a good sense of who they are. These folks did all the right things, asked all the right questions and got taken for a ride anyway.

There's good advice about asking the right questions and checking these places out thoroughly, but there's just no substitute for good old fashioned common sense and healthy skepticism. I'd add one more item to Maia's 10 good questions; does the kid have normal access to communication w/ the outside world? If the answer is no, hang up, it's not a safe place. I don't care how pure the intentions of the people running it.

It's just damned foolish to isolate a kid among strangers and just trust them. In the real world, in the rare case when we legitimately need to limit a person's contact and communication (i.e. Charles Manson or Hannibal Lector) we go through an exhaustive adversarial process to make damned sure there is no less restrictive, less rash means of dealing with that singularly dangerous individual. None of these programs are qualified, or even interested in doing that.

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Richard and Reese were both scheduled, I believe, the rest were random or prescreened calls.

I think they did a pretty good job of balancing the viewpoints. But you're right, there never seems to be enough time to finish this conversation. I would have liked to ask those program parents a few questions about how much contact they've had w/ their kids, how long their kids have been away, what the basis is for their belief that their kids are doing so well.

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 I would have liked to have heard more of Richards' story but they were running out of time and shut him off.  

Oh, you'll love the book! She tells quite a bit about Rich in it.

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It seemed his position was not a failed staff member but more of a systemic problem at the place he went to, straight, where he saw system wide abuse condoned from the top down.  I would be interested to know if the school has softened since he went or if this book will make a difference in adressing that place.

Reeses story didnt suprise me"


Well, again, check out those links I posted, especially the ISAC site. One more, http://thestraights.com/

No, it hasn't "softened" in any significant ways. Once in awhile, people will come together and go all activist like and keep hounding the authorities to do their jobs. And the Programs will temporarily suspend things like motivating (that weird flapping thing they do) or beltlooping. But, as soon as the pressure is off (and the authorities are just pleased as punch to look away just as soon as activists quit pressuring them) it all comes back.

See, the cops, judges, religious fundies and other fear and hate mongers just love these "get tought" programs. Never mind that they're harmful and ineffective, it just feels so good. It's exactly the same mentality (by the same individuals, too!) that has us spending billions yearly, shredding our constitution, mucking around in the domestic affairs of foreign nations, all in a completely futile effort to control, by force of law, which drugs and how much of them any individual may consume. Never mind that it's expensive, harmful and completely ineffectual. It just feels so damned good to do something, and to suffer for it. If you try to shatter those illusions w/ a little fact, the proponants can get downright hostile.

But Straight and it's affiliates never were "schools" by any stretch. It's a slightly different model from ASR. The kids all go to a warehouse or similar facility all day long. At night, they go to the homes of families who have been drinking the kool aid for a number of months or years. You don't have any contact at all with anyone outside the cult for an arbitrary number of months or, sometimes, years till you attain 3rd phase and are allowed to attend work or school. While you're out in 'the world', you're still not permitted to have any significant relationships with anyone outside the cult. If you do, someone will find out (or it's best to assume so) and report you to staff and you lose it all, back on phase one, starting all over again.

This is one of those things that's just very difficult for most people to believe or understand. But it's been happening for 30 years, right in plain sight in populated areas. But it's true, I lived it and so have a lot of ppl around here.

That's what comes to my mind when the well intended social works and other helping professionals recomend "family involvement". It's a real nightmare. This particular family of cults took my native family from me when I was only a little kid. Aside from patching things up w/ my dad, who met me at least halfway in that effort, I never have gotten my family back. Probably never will, either.

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2006, 01:57:00 PM »
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And did she have to attend seminars and group meetings as well? I can give you an earful about the role of younger brothers and sisters and how it effects family ties in the long run.

Well most of the family visits were parents only.  About two thirds thru the process they invited the entire family and it was a good time for the siblings to resolve any issues they had with each other.  I opted out of this for a few reasons.  Some of the meetings had a lot of energy to them, very open and honest discussions on every level.  Not having control over what the other kids would be exposed to and there were no issues to be resolved between them anyway, so I opted to isolate them from this and left them behind.  In hindsight the family visit was handled very well and was tempered enough for a ?G? rated audience.

Quote
Yeah, well, there are a couple of ways to spin that too. I think the LSWs and licensed psrinks have all the good intentions in the world when they recomend family counseling. However, if the organization to which the family turns for help is one of these cultish ones, that just means everybody joins the cult or leaves the family. Remember what Maia said about the Bacons?

I was thinking more of a family therapist who could help with conflict resolution, locally.  A trained therapist, mom, dad and child in one room.  My daughter was being treated but the rest of us were not.  I think,  again in hindsight, I would have tried this prior to ASR.

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I'd add one more item to Maia's 10 good questions; does the kid have normal access to communication w/ the outside world? If the answer is no, hang up, it's not a safe place. I don't care how pure the intentions of the people running it.

It's just damned foolish to isolate a kid among strangers and just trust them.

I agree, total isolation can be harmful, I think ASR does a good job here and maintains a healthy balance.

Quote
No, it hasn't "softened" in any significant ways.

Too bad, one would think, that after 30 years that a process would have self adjusted many times to improve or eliminate those pieces that are harmful or not adding value.

Quote
That's what comes to my mind when the well intended social works and other helping professionals recomend "family involvement". It's a real nightmare. This particular family of cults took my native family from me when I was only a little kid. Aside from patching things up w/ my dad, who met me at least halfway in that effort, I never have gotten my family back. Probably never will, either.


That is something I could not imagine.  It was hard enough having the distance between us and limited contact for 12-14 months, but I could not sign up for something like that, very different than what we were exposed to.  I will check out the book, thanks Ginger.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2006, 03:33:00 PM »
***Too bad, one would think, that after 30 years that a process would have self adjusted many times to improve or eliminate those pieces that are harmful or not adding value.

Well, Who, I think you're under the assumption that programs are always looking to improve their program methods. Truth is- they make adjustments when the market demands it. There is just so much they can/will change because they wouldn't even appear to 'work' without the isolation/abuse pieces- whether we agree on what constitutes abuse/isolation, this is what it feels like to the kids, and what 'motivates' them to demonstrate compliance. Without those austere control measures, they would have nothing to sell. They would be total failures... unless they adopted a respectful approach to dealing with their charges. Postive regard, conflict resolution, finding their lost zest for life, dispelling hopelessness. Haven't seen a program yet, that was genuninely able to assist in this way. You can't punish away these kinds of issues. It takes genuine caring and finely developed skills to build trutst with teens and help them sort out the confusion and misbeliefs they have been inundated with.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2006, 06:27:00 PM »
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On 2006-02-18 12:33:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Too bad, one would think, that after 30 years that a process would have self adjusted many times to improve or eliminate those pieces that are harmful or not adding value.



Well, Who, I think you're under the assumption that programs are always looking to improve their program methods. Truth is- they make adjustments when the market demands it. There is just so much they can/will change because they wouldn't even appear to 'work' without the isolation/abuse pieces- whether we agree on what constitutes abuse/isolation, this is what it feels like to the kids, and what 'motivates' them to demonstrate compliance. Without those austere control measures, they would have nothing to sell. They would be total failures... unless they adopted a respectful approach to dealing with their charges. Postive regard, conflict resolution, finding their lost zest for life, dispelling hopelessness. Haven't seen a program yet, that was genuninely able to assist in this way. You can't punish away these kinds of issues. It takes genuine caring and finely developed skills to build trutst with teens and help them sort out the confusion and misbeliefs they have been inundated with."
I see what you are saying Deborah, there are core requirements that make the programs work like removing the children from the home, shutting down some of their access to cell phones mp3's etc.  But not knowing the industry well personally one would think that from just a pure business/ competitive / improving the success rate for the kids/ improving market share etc. Straight would monitor themselves and try to improve and make changes as at least part of their corporate strategy or do they think that they are so powerful and the market is overflowing that they don?t need to care because the money will always be coming in so they don?t feel they need to be more humane or compassionate.
Is it mostly that they don?t care?  Feel they will grow anyway and gain market share despite the allegations or growing public opinions against them?  Maybe they are owned by one family who doesn?t care to address any issues because they are happy and rich enough?

I am curious because straight seems to be the worse of the worse (from what I have read here) and at the same time have been around a long time (since the ?70s?)
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Offline Nonconformistlaw

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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2006, 06:48:00 PM »
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On 2006-02-18 15:27:00, TheWho wrote:

"or do they think that they are so powerful and the market is overflowing that they don?t need to care because the money will always be coming in so they don?t feel they need to be more humane or compassionate.

Is it mostly that they don?t care?  Feel they will grow anyway and gain market share despite the allegations or growing public opinions against them?  Maybe they are owned by one family who doesn?t care to address any issues because they are happy and rich enough?

I am curious because straight seems to be the worse of the worse (from what I have read here) and at the same time have been around a long time (since the ?70s?)

Well Straight got free advertising/press in the 80's from Nancy Reagan's numerous visits, was praised by Bush I, etc. Straight was held out to be the best drug rehab in the country for years. I'm sure those running Straight never felt the need to change anything....they always claimed that the program worked, then spouted off extremely exaggerated stats about their so-called success rates. Mel Sembler's (former US Ambassador to Austrailia and Italy) involvement also did a lot to ward off serious investigation, monitoring etc. And yes, Straight existed between 1976-1993. But there are current Straight copy-cat programs still running to this day.....same program, just a different name. There's much more to this, Eudora is better at explaining it than me.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2006, 10:24:00 PM »
***I see what you are saying Deborah, there are core requirements that make the programs work like removing the children from the home, shutting down some of their access to cell phones mp3's etc.

Well, as you and I know, their isolation from the world entails a hell of a lot more than ?shutting down some of their access to cell phones and mp3s?. For instance, no contact with parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. Any useful ?therapy? would not require this kind of isolation from the real world. And it wouldn?t take a year or two to notice any results.  These long stays and total isolation, even if it is temporary, serve the program, not the teen. You don?t teach someone ?balance? by subjecting them to total deprivation.  A person doesn?t need to be ?working their program? 24/7 in order to make positive changes in their life.

***But not knowing the industry well personally one would think that from just a pure business/ competitive / improving the success rate for the kids/ improving market share etc. Straight would monitor themselves and try to improve and make changes as at least part of their corporate strategy or do they think that they are so powerful and the market is overflowing that they don?t need to care because the money will always be coming in so they don?t feel they need to be more humane or compassionate.

As I?ve said before, programs change when pressure is applied. And as someone else stated, the changes revert when the pressure is lifted. Ironically, the exact same dynamic you can witness in kids who have been conditioned with BM.
Some kids find it difficult years later to make choices. Would you prefer your child to learn how to make useful decisions for themselves, rekindle their passion for life, or to be conditioned to respond and react to an external authority? Like Pavlov?s dogs?  
I think that program owner?s and staff believe in their methods. To date there have been enough parents that have been deceived or approve of the methods, to keep the money flowing in. That could change. Some programs have gone under due to excessive legal settlements, poor financial management, etc. Sometimes an investor comes along, scoops them up and throws money at the problem in order to revive it. Some have been shut down by the state due to neglect, abuse, death. A few months later they are operating under a new name in the same, or a different state. There?s a lot to know about this industry.

***Is it mostly that they don?t care? Feel they will grow anyway and gain market share despite the allegations or growing public opinions against them? Maybe they are owned by one family who doesn?t care to address any issues because they are happy and rich enough?

When I first started posting on Fornits five years ago, there wasn?t all the activity you see today. Word is spreading. Some people are waking up to what?s going on in their own backyards. Prior to my ex incarcerating both our sons without my knowledge or consent, I knew nothing about this industry. I thought ?reform homes? had died with Roloff.  They didn?t. Some of those still exist and a new breed was created with a new marketing spin. ?Therapy?. What parent wouldn?t abdicate parental rights and control for a chance at their kid being saved in a residential setting, isolated from all the ills and risks of the real world?
As far as Straight? a lot of politics there. A lot of support from the government. When you have that kind of backing, you can literally get away with murder.

There are more humane models out there. They aren't employed because people don't know about them or they are incapable of positive regard. There is a state program for juvenile offenders in Tx that is run more humanely than some programs. It's all about the methods and techniques. If I were forced to to choose, I personally would rather my sons have gone through a few months there than the ultra expensive, private programs they endured. One to a military institution, one to a military institution followed by a mind raping mill.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2006, 10:04:00 AM »
Sorry, this post lost
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2006, 03:10:00 PM »
Sorry, this post lost
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2006, 03:54:00 PM »
Sorry, this post lost
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2006, 03:58:00 PM »
Sorry, this post lost
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2006, 04:25:00 PM »
Sorry, this post lost
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