Another 73/74 Seedling Grad

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:


  Studies?  No.  A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com"

You may have the anger part right, to a certain extent, but what gives you the impression that we're a bunch of failures and fuckups?  How awfully crass and presumptuous of you.

I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Neil,

Not all of us felt like the Seed harmed us.  I for one was grateful that I got a chance to go to the Seed.  I know in my heart that if I had not gone I would not be the person I am today.  I had absolutely no confidence in myself and only wanted to destroy myself.   The Seed gave me a sense of self worth and the tools to handle things in life.  "

The exact point of this thread.  Are you not paying attention?  The point made was "at what price". We have conceded the point that some people feel they were "helped" by their individual involvement.

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 10:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg,

Thanks for the insight.

It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.



Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.

Neil"

Thanks Bro.  I have made peace with it.  This discussion forum exists, and discuss we do, but I promise you I am not stuck back there.  Hell, that was over 30 years ago and I was  a child, and as you I have a real tangible life to live today.  However, this discussion site exists for a reason and so here we are, 30 years later resolving these things and taking hard looks at what happened back then.

  Listen, on some level you did want to discuss this or you would have never googled "the seed" or "art barker".  

That the discussion isn't exactly an easy feel-goody one I offer no apology for.

As for your story, it is of great consequence here because you are part of a fascinating piece of americana. A small creepy cult rose to meet the fears of a nation and within 2 years Thousands of children were locked up against their will under threats and coercion and made to conform to a model. The parents adopted the lingo and associated only within the group.  Outsiders were rejected, and their criticism of the 'seed robots' was loud and clear.  A charasmatic leader rose up and claimed he was sent to save the american youth.  The government got involved.  

Then...the shit hit the fan, ex-seedlings started telling what really went on behind the warehouse door, the press relentlessly asked questions, and the government studied and cut funding... and the place regressed to its roots, a creepy little treatment cult. In its wake a replacement without the, er 'problem', of Art Barker, and the replacments have somehow existed to this day, in spite of horrible press, complaints and lawsuits.

Neil, you were part of it.  If you wanna stick around and figure out what the hell it was, by all means do so.  You want to go away and re-bury the memories and believe the hype that you were a lost soul saved by the seed, well that is your call as well.

whatever you decide..this forum is all about you and it is here for you now or whenever you are ready.

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 11:27:00, Stripe wrote:

  Maybe not as harsh as finding out your sister is your mama, but close. :grin:

Man, that just sucks!  Have you told Jerry Springer about this?



 :grin:

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:



On 2006-01-02 21:48:00...  suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?

"

  Studies?  No.  A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com"
"

You know, that link leads me in a circle right back to here.  Maybe that is why were angry and fucked up, you have linked us in an infinite circle.  

How the hell will I ever get out of here now?

 :scared:  :scared:

 :wink:

[GregFL]

 

Jalong wrote:


Yes, there are two sides to every coin, yet most of my experience in the seed from 72-73 wasn't all that horrible. I had to look my demon right in the eyes, because he was on staff.

On 2006-01-01 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Whatever soaps were going on with the staff was not my concern. I was there to fix me, not participate in a larger society.

I just picked up on this while reviewing the thread.  

Neil, had you been around here a little longer, you would have been able to deduce that Jalong was speaking of a junior staff member in St Pete (the same one that did my intake "search" btw and got my pants and underwear down around my knees to see if I had drugs down my pants).

Jalong has told us a story about this staff member raping her before going in the seed, and then being forced to face him every day.

Now Jalong believes the seed helped her, and I cannot take that perception from her.  But I just have to wonder how theraputic it is to lock a 15 year old girl up, restrict her movements, her ability to call anyone, set up a system where she can only speak under certain circumstances,  and then put her rapist in a position of authority over her? I think a person with lessor mental accurity could have developed a mental disorder or worse under the same circumstances.

As someone said earlier, the cookie-cutter approach to 'therapy' or 'rehab' if you will,   once in a while may find a cookie in the proper shape but this is the exception not the rule.  For many many kids, having our behavior modified by these crude totalitarian techniques felt like anything but love.

[Anonymous]

How did I get here?  You know, they say sometimes you go someplace you're needed but don't know why.  So here's how I got here...I was looking up information on the old Skipper Chuck Show.  Chuck Zinc, the host, passed away a couple of days ago and I was curious to find the story about it.  Somehow I found this set of forums, and on one that talked about Skipper Chuck there were some postings about the Seed.  

I'm a lifelong South Florida resident.  I remember hearing about and even passing the building many many years ago.  I was never in the program but fortunately didn't need it.

Why am I here?  I read some of the postings and see much anger, hurt, sadness in many of the people here.  It seems they still are suffering from their past, be it what happened at the Seed or other events.  So why am I here at this moment, reading this board?

Maybe to offer an alternative.  I'm not going to specifically blow my own horn here, but I do wish to offer those who are still having problems dealing with their emotions from the past (or even in the here and now) a possible solution.  It's something that's been around about 25 years but is not well known.  It's not a live-in program, not a new medication...it's a method of letting go of all that emotional shit from your past.  

The method is called Time Line Therapy.  There are practitioners around the world trained in this method, although the number is probably less than 2,000.  Yet the method is highly effective...I've seen amazing changes in just a few hours of session time, permanent changes, and in fact was so impressed when I first saw it I decided I had to learn it.

Long story short:  Close friend had been having emotional issues for years, I tried to help but knew it was beyond my capabilities and was trying to find help for him.  It reached a point where he had decided to commit suicide.  Through an almost unbelievable set of coincidences, the day before he became suicidal I heard of this method and the person who did it was going to be in town the next day.  When my friend had his crisis, I took him to meet this woman and she agreed to work with him two days later.  She worked with him - 2 three hour sessions over 2 days - and it was beyond amazing.  He was fine...and has been so for years now.  She allowed me to sit in and watch and as soon as she finished I asked her how I could learn.  I took a training class with her a few months later and I've been using it for 4 years and the results are incredible.

I would guess some people here would be leary of some "new" method after the issues they had at the Seed, but as I said maybe I was supposed to find this group tonight and post this so some of you might be helped.  Sometimes a coincidence isn't a coincidence.

I debated as I end this whether I should put any info on me here since I don't want this to be too self-serving.  I am a practitioner of Time Line Therapy techniques, but there are others.  Look up Time Line Therapy online.  Check out the website for the method, http://www.TimeLineTherapy.net (I am not related in any way to the owners of the company, I am just a practitioner).  At worst, you'll waste a few minutes reading a couple of web pages.  At best, you may find a way to change yourself for the better.

As I said, I debated putting anything about me.  Of course, if I was reading this, I'd wonder "who the fuck is this guy"?  That said, I'm posting an email address for me.  sdvmia@gmail.com  If you want to ask me questions about the method, please email me.  However, know that there are many practitioners out there and the association can give you names of local practitioners in your area.

[JaLong]

Thank you Greg for clarifying what I was talking about. I guess what Neil said about the "soap" stuff went right over my head. Anyhow yes, I had PTSD, depression, and anxiety before the seed, and it was worse during and after the seed. When I speak of the seed helping me, the only way it did was getting me off the streets.... off of all the drugs and drinking too. That's about it. I was petrified in the seed. The only difference, as I have said before, is that Susie Conners was there for me to talk to. Both at the seed and at my old comers house. (all female staff lived there until they got an apt. on pass-a-grill.)I felt trapped, humiliated, and scared to death everyday I went in there. After I "graduated" 10 1/2 months later, some girls and I got an apt. together. We actually had alot of fun. Now because of this forum I have been reunited with some and with one of the guys I use to hang with. I wasn't treated badly, and we had all kinds of sandwiches. Not just PB&J. When my rapist left, I felt more open to listen to what was going on. I did learn quite alot, and I am greatful that I have remained drug free, and was booze free for 19 yrs. I only drink on occassion. Well that is "part" of my story. And again, thank you Greg.
Neil, there was alot of things going on personally with others, and behind closed doors. I respect how you feel, yet remember, there were hundreds of other "kids" right by your side for 12 hrs a day.

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-06 04:56:00, JaLong wrote:

I felt trapped, humiliated, and scared to death everyday I went in there.

Me too Jalong...I just imagine it was even worse for you.

Also, I felt extremely bad after graduating.  Like most of my friends who graduated, we went back to doing some things that were considered to be heretical in the view of seedlings (like a beer here and there, trying to pick up druggie girls, etc)  and trying to be normal, only now our old  friends all thought we were "narks", the seedlings wouldn't talk to us, and the other kids were suspicious as well.  We kind of felt like outcasts, to be honest about it.   In addition, a lot of that self defeating "powerlessness" stuff was bouncing around in my head, as was many other powerfull suggestions implanted in me that I later discovered to be erroneous and stifiling to my growth as a happy well adjusted human.

I felt anything but normal as a teenage seed graduate.

[Stripe]

I have not looked on the web to see what this Time Line Therapy is all about. Frankly, I'm suspicious: that doesn't mean it's not an effective therapy, but the whole company reference leaves me, if not cold, definitely suspicious.

However, I have found an incredible amount of comfort and self-understanding from reading Marc Wordsmith's article.  His expereiences, which of course, mirrored mine and probably many, many other seed kids regardless of whether we were boys or girls. The day to day mind programming was exactly the same. .

Marc's article is here on the forum and while I'm not a proponent of the "everyone should do this/read this" method, well, I found it made a difference for me.  Maybe it was the fact that the planets were properly aligned when I read it and some other things were getting right in my heart, but really, seeing in another's words how we were programmed to turn against ourselves is what rang the bell for me. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2006-01-07 07:45 ]

[marshall]

The Seed / Art seemed to assume that all drug users and even those with bad or 'druggie' attitudes were all suffering from the same problem that called for the same solution. One size fits all. No distinction was really made between a junkie in their 20's and a young teen with a rebellious attitude. I think this is one of the most serious flaws of the program.

Imagine a psychiatrist that gave all of her patients prozac, regardless of their problem. Many of those suffering from depression would probably be helped to a degree by this treatment. It might have no effect upon others and perhaps make others much worse or even cause them to commit suicide.  Imagine this psychiatrist then insisting that those who didn't respond positively to his treatment 'just didn't get it'...that the failed treatment was somehow their own fault. The same could be said about electro-shock  and any number of therapies. What may be helpful to some can be harmful to others.

The synanon / seed type of confrontational program may be effective for some people..or at least the lesser of two evils. Just as there are likely many people who are better-off being hari krishna's, jehovah's witnesses or scientologists. Who knows how many were lost and directionless, perhaps headed for suicide or prison, until they discovered the 'Truth' of Rev. Moon?  Does this mean those who left those groups or feel they were harmed by them are wrong?

People use drugs / alcohol for different reasons. The 14 year old kid may be smoking pot, drinking beer & smoking cigarettes because her friends are doing it. The result of peer pressure and trying to fit in. A 25 year old heroin addict may be suffering from profound depression or other more serious psychological problems. A teen using drugs like acid might be suffering from feelings of unreality and trying to find a deeper meaning to life (like myself). Others may simply be curious about the effects of the various drugs, sample them and move on.

Art assumed it was all due to personal flaws and the nefarious effects of an evil drug culture that was creeping over the nation...hence a strong focus of the program was on culture-reform rather than drug use itself. It was all due to the clothes, the hair styles, the slang, the music, posters and incense. I recall Ginger (staff member) saying that she got rid of her posters, music and incense because 'what would my newcomer think if she came home & I was rockin' out and burning incense?'

Landhy wrote earlier about his experience with psychiatrists....about how useless it was to him. I went to a psychiatrist for nearly a year before going to the seed. I suffered from feelings of unreality and fear. I was given lots of drugs in an attempt to treat my 'problem'. None had any major effect. They seemed to change their diagnosis of my problem on a weekly basis. So I'm no big fan of modern psychiatry either. It's a science still in it's infancy. I won't say that my time in therapy was totally useless though. I did learn some things about myself. It just never really addressed my underlying problem. Finally, right before I was sent to the Seed I was told that they couldn't cure me because I wasn't really sick. I was told that I suffered from existential anxiety as a result of asking too many deep questions. They concluded I would have to find my own answers to allay this anxiety and therapy offered no cure for me.

Just as my time in therapy was not a total waste, neither was my time at the Seed. But just as the therapy never really addressed my own underlying problem (and the main reason of my drug use), neither did the Seed. Just as I really wanted to be helped by therapy, I really wanted to believe in the Seed and all of their ideology.

 Unfortunately, despite all of the techniques I was exposed to on my program (& I maintain that some were useful despite the completely unethical way in which they were imparted) that deep fear or existential anxiety had been left untouched.  I still suffered from feelings of unreality. Any time I brought this up to staff I was told to stop looking for a heavy, stop asking those 'deep' questions and just concentrate on helping others.  That didn't work for me. The question (about the nature of reality) was just too deeply ingrained to ignore.  For me, it was long years of meditation that finally resolved that underlying pain / fear. That was my answer. But I don't insist that what worked for me is what eveyone else needs and ram it down their throat via coercion.
 
Many of those at the Seed may have simply suffered from some chemical imbalance in their brain....such as chronic depression that is amenable to treatment via the new antidepressants. Being reviled and yelled at was probably not appropriate treatment for them either. I can also see that if you completed your program and realized that you were still basically miserable you might feel not only hopeless but believe it was your own fault...that you just couldn't 'get it'. Returning to heavier drug use, alcoholism or suicide post-seed is entirely understandable under such circumstances. I can also see where those from really toxic families might view the seed as a life-saving alternative family and be grateful for that alternative.
 
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:11 ][ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:15 ]

[Anonymous]

Marshall, Nice post.

I would imagine that the screening criteria at The Seed was "if you got through the door, you qualified." That fact that you showed up meant that Somebody thought you had a problem and Somebody thought The Seed would help. I'm sure they turned some folks away for various reasons but probably not many.
Saying that, I'm really in no position to speculate.

I will speculate though that as a lot of kids there in 73-74ish, my problem was not drugs; they were simply a "...side benefit..." of my problem.

Pre-Seed, I was the classic tumble weed. (sorry for the old description but it fits) My concern was to fit in, have fun and be cool. I have seen 1st hand the old lesson, from my daughter of 16, friends are very powerful. Her friends were super kids from the get go. Her standards are high and now she mingles with super kids and avoids the (careful now) "Losers". My friends sucked and we all wallered in our own shit together. I thought that we all thought that school was for nerds, sports was for jock assholes and anyone involved in any extracurricular activity didn't have a life. ?We? did though. We skipped school, got high, stole and damaged as much personal and public property as we could. And me, the tumble weed, I went along and even nurtured this paradigm. I had no perspective that I needed to figure out what was really important in life and find the strength to do it. Therefore, I was going nowhere and fast. I did a little therapy but as they say, ?A light bulb has to want to change?? The Seed, however egregious, made me want to change.

Now I will say that as big as my problems were to me, in the grand scheme of things they were miniscule and petty. Some others in The Seed probably had (careful again) real problems. Their life could have really sucked. Family, rape, jail, hard drugs, chemical depression, ignorant adults etc. etc. For me and my pathetic reality, all I needed was to be pointed in the right direction and given a big kick in the ass. For the others, that wouldn?t have worked so well? The Seed worked great for me and for the (probably many) others like me, it probably did the same and they have disappeared into life. For the ones that this did not fit, I see that it was more a stumbling block, (or Bus as someone said ) to getting things figured out. (forgive me for what is surely an understatement there)

An analogy:
In my industry, advertising photography, everyone is excellent at one or maybe a few things. I?m good at studio work focusing on products and special effects. Others are good at architecture or people or macro or scenic. Many photographers are whores and they?ll be glad to do your architecture, people, product or any other shot that is out of their expertise and bill you just the same. Some don?t think they?re whores, they think they really are good at everything. These guys gain very little but distain from the community. But because we are not saving lives in our industry, we don?t attack and perceive them as liars and self anointed Deities. They are just bottom feeders doing what they love, photography,  thereby helping some and screwing others.
The Seed was good at fixing  pathetic little shits like me but surely sucked at fixing kids with ?real? problems.

Out from under my rock?
Neil

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-08 07:37:00, Neil wrote:



The Seed was good at fixing  pathetic little shits like me but surely sucked at fixing kids with ?real? problems.
 b

Neil, I am sorry but this premise you are harboring is just so flawed on so many levels and so indictive of the thinking of almost all adults that are pro-seed. We were hammered to believe, accept, and testify to the worthlessness of our existences pre-seed to such a level that to continue to accept the seed's perceived value, you must continue to accept your pre-seed life was tragically doomed without them.  This view doesn't comport with reality for most people.

First, the biggest complaints about these programs have come from people, like you, that were not addicts but instead juveniles with mostly family and/or behavorial issues, and the most ardent supporters seem to be older and drug addicted when they came in, like John U.

  I myself had similar issues to what you described, and the seed did anything but "fix" my issues, which really stemmed around abandonment, control, and neglect.  Drugs and other issues were secondary.

Second, I have a real hard time with your characterization of yourself as a "pathetic little shit" pre-seed.  I think you may need to get back in touch with who you really were and why you were running around vandalizing property and whatnot.  There were real reasons Neil, and I sincerely doubt it was because you were as you self-describe but that instead something else was going on.

Give that kid a break Neil and think about what was really going on.  


GregFL

[Anonymous]

Greg,

You said:
"I have a real hard time with your characterization of yourself as a "pathetic little shit" pre-seed. I think you may need to get back in touch with who you really were and why you were running around vandalizing property and whatnot. There were real reasons Neil, and I sincerely doubt it was because you were as you self-describe but that instead something else was going on."

I thought The Seed was the entity that hammered us into accepting a ?truth? that was not.

You clearly believe and very well may be right with your assertions about The Seed
BUT
You cannot lead me to believe that I was fine and would have been better without The Seed. I?m not sure what you would have recommended for me back then. What reality would you have created for me?

"pathetic little shit"? Let?s not get too semantic. That kid didn?t need a break, he needed some understanding and a kick in the ass. My parents didn?t know how to do it but they knew I needed something.

Unfortunately I have gotten the message that many Seedling haven?t faired so well and they either blame The Seed or say it didn?t help or it made things worse. It?s too bad.

Do not stray too far from ?Perception is reality?. Your life is what ?You? make of it. If it takes 30 years of consternation to figure out the shit from the Teen years then that?s the life you?ve made for yourself. If you can take a slap in the face or a boot in your ass and figure your shit out early, then you can spend the next 30 years making good shit happen for yourself. Your choice, not someone elses.

Neil

[Anonymous]

Neil :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy: