Another 73/74 Seedling Grad

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 05:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"ditto, I'll second."

Who would be # 2, then?

Oh yeah, that would be you.


 :grin:

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-02 21:55:00, Antigen wrote:



But you are being uncompassionate. And really hostile, too. Do you talk to people in real life like this?


Think of it in just a slightly different context. What if you got a kidney transplant and all went incredibly well, beyond all expectations. You thank the doctors and the good mother earth and come to nearly worship the staff and think of them and other patient families as family away from home. All that's great till you find out that your new kidney came from a healthy young highschool kid. They just clubbed him over the head, took the damned thing w/o his consent, patched him up a bit then shoved him out the door to make way for the next one and the next.



Still think those mother fuckers are heros worthy of your adoration and defense?

Antigen,
Yes I talk to people like this in real life. Do you?

I didn't know that The Seed sacrificed some other kid's healthy life and gave it to me. My healthy life was what was on the line and I did something about it. The other kid's lives were one the line too. They had/have the oportunity to do something about it and they either did or didn't. What they chose to do was not my problem.
Is the Seed responsible for the humble successes I've had in my life? No. I am. BUT It did play a major role by putting me on a path that gave me a chance.
If the Seed was a monsterous beast that chewed kids up and spit them out as waste, I'm horrified. I'd then also amazed that I participated in such a treterous program and escaped with my health. How did that happen?

They may be mother fuckers but I do not adore them and I'm not in a position to defend them nor am I attempting to. I am defending my experience though. It wasn't fun but I used it to get going in the right direction.
Neil

[GregFL]

I didn't know that The Seed sacrificed some other kid's healthy life and gave it to me.....


If the Seed was a monsterous beast that chewed kids up and spit them out as waste, I'm horrified. I'd then also amazed that I participated in such a treterous program and escaped with my health. How did that happen?

This is one of the things Neil, that has come out of this website.  Those of us who perceived we were "helped" by the seed just assumed it helped most everyone and everyone benefited.  Those of us who were harmed felt it was generally harmfull, oppressive and dangerous.

I think what we have collectively discovered is that The Seed experience was extremely varied depending on many factors, inluding your age, your actual 'problems' when you went in, how long you stayed, how rebellious in nature you are, what personality type you exhibit, how involved you became, how involved your family became, how quickly you were able to detach, how much your support system caved in around you, and on and on.

Yes Neil, many kids were chewed up and spit out by the seed. I was one of them. I also know many who shrugged it off and went on with their life like nothing happened. But the "success ratio" of the seed?  As far as I can tell, only a handfull of kids stopped using, and many many went on to greater problems.  We even have a seed grad on death row in florida, and his lawyer used  his time in the seed to demonstrate psychological harm in his unsuccessfull appeal.  I know many grads that committed suicide, and several others that Od'd on drugs. Many adults who find this site choose not to post, but I receive emails from people that feel devestated by their experience and feel they are forced to keep a dirty little secret from their spouses and children.  

I think Ginger's analogy is fitting.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-02 07:29:00, GregFL wrote:

On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:


The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty.

Okay, Im calling major bullshit on that statement. THe seed was perhaps one of the most dishonest places ever conceived of.

Greg,
I wasn't refering to the Seed's honesty I was refering to mine.
Although I did run into folks that wouldn't rest until I agreed with them, even when they were wrong, I believe that the ideas and perceptions about myself "I" came to were indeed true. As I have revisited any of the issues I had then, over time they still hold valid and the guys who held my feet to the fire are still appreciated.

As to your poor reception upon returning to the Seed, I'm not surprised. Good or bad, that environment was controlled and protected. Opening themselves up to a "possible" threat wouldn't have been prudent. The fact that they didn't have some way to show appreciation of grads is too bad. Woulda, coulda shoulda...

I never had the urge to go back.
Neil

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-04 07:07:00, GregFL wrote







This is one of the things Neil, that has come out of this website.  Those of us who perceived we were "helped" by the seed just assumed it helped most everyone and everyone benefited.  Those of us who were harmed felt it was generally harmfull, oppressive and dangerous.

Greg,
Thank you so much for that response. Best thing I've heard yet.
I've always known that the process at The Seed was contoversial but have never gotten any info on the success and failures.
That is a very difficult field and The Seed certainly wasn't 6 flags over hwy 84 and I'm pretty sure that no kid went there without some sort of problem.
Based on my experience, which was founded on doing things for myself, it's hard to see how the process is blamed for a failure. I have always put the success or failure on the shoulders of the indivdual. Yeah well, a teenager... maybe not completely... which is probably where you are basing your case.
Neil

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-02 07:29:00, GregFL wrote:

On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:





The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty.

Okay, Im calling major bullshit on that statement. THe seed was perhaps one of the most dishonest places ever conceived of.

Greg,

I wasn't refering to the Seed's honesty I was refering to mine.

Although I did run into folks that wouldn't rest until I agreed with them, even when they were wrong, I believe that the ideas and perceptions about myself "I" came to were indeed true. As I have revisited any of the issues I had then, over time they still hold valid and the guys who held my feet to the fire are still appreciated.



As to your poor reception upon returning to the Seed, I'm not surprised. Good or bad, that environment was controlled and protected. Opening themselves up to a "possible" threat wouldn't have been prudent. The fact that they didn't have some way to show appreciation of grads is too bad. Woulda, coulda shoulda...



I never had the urge to go back.

Neil"

Okay, I better understand now.  Thanks.

[GregFL]

Neil...armed and dangerous with phpBB tags.

 :grin:

I cleaned them up for you in the last two posts.

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 07:32:00, Anonymous


Based on my experience, which was founded on doing things for myself, it's hard to see how the process is blamed for a failure. I have always put the success or failure on the shoulders of the indivdual.

I generally think this is true as well, but you are getting into a muddy area here.  What is failure, success?  These are terms we define individually.  

Generally however, holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger could be categorized as failure, as was done by one kid before group one day. What causes a seed atendee, in the midst of all that "awareness" and "love" to kill himself? What causes a  seed grad to stick a needle in his arm in front of his family with a lethal dose of drugs inside?

  What drives people to do such things?

 There is ample evidence that psychological torment can and does cause these things.  There are also stories from the day from pyschologists that were treating kids released from the seed that were suicidal and had feelings of worthlessness.  There is a story of a 15 year old girl that ran from the seed in st pete and hid in the woods near her home for a week, to scared to go home..and this after attempting to slit her wrists in the bathroom and then instructed by staff not to tell her parents (honesty?).  And then there is the story of a seed grad that got in his car and drove from florida until he was broke and ran out of gas in Illinois because he knew his father was making plans to recommit him to the seed. This kid also choose to take a much harder path that involved other abuses in order not to reendure the Seed, and was scared to even speak to his father again for years.  That kid was me, and the seed ripped to shreds my family because I chose to take an intellectual and personal stand against the program dogma after graduating the seed.  I am not alone  either Neil, many a kid ended up choosing the autonomy of their own mind over the mind-rape of the seed cult, and a huge price was extracted from us kids.

Neil, I am glad you feel the seed gave you a good result.  But as Ginger says, there was a price to pay, and that price was paid by the many other kids that felt oppressed, tortured, coerced, scared.  The price was paid by kids that weighed the costs and choose to run from their families and ended up a continent away, their family ties forever broken.  The price was paid by kids that put guns to their heads, that jumped off bridges, that Overdosed on drugs, that otherwise died suspiciously, by kids that felt lost and rejected and spiraled into depression and mental illness.

This treatment model has shown itself, in all its incarnations from CEDU to the seed, from straight, Inc. to KHK, and from Wasp and other programs, to cause harm to a significant portion of the attendees.   While doing this, it also has kids that claim it saved their life.

So again, who pays the price for the saved kids?  That is the question being proferred.

[GregFL]

On 2006-01-04 07:32:00, Anonymous wrote:



That is a very difficult field and The Seed certainly wasn't 6 flags over hwy 84 and I'm pretty sure that no kid went there without some sort of problem.

Every human every day has "problems". Kids went to the seed for "druggie attitudes", shoplifting, being the little sister or brother of a seedling, being "dry druggies", you name it, they went there,and as young as 9.

But even if a kid had a drug overuse problem, How does this justify turning your 14 year old over to strangers who lock him up, make him admit to being an addict,  barely feed him, give him little sleep, and cuss at, scream and belittle him, sit him around people discussing sex and rape, and lock him away with criminals and sexual deviants,  among other treatment modalities of the seed?

The seed was controversial for a reason.  It was snake oil sold by a snake oil salesman.

[Anonymous]

Greg,
Thanks for the insight.
It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.

Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.
Neil

[Anonymous]

Neil,
Not all of us felt like the Seed harmed us.  I for one was grateful that I got a chance to go to the Seed.  I know in my heart that if I had not gone I would not be the person I am today.  I had absolutely no confidence in myself and only wanted to destroy myself.   The Seed gave me a sense of self worth and the tools to handle things in life.

[Stripe]

On 2006-01-04 10:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg,

Thanks for the insight.

It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.



Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.

Neil"

Hey Neil,

I've been watching and reading from the sidelines.  Neil, your experience is just as real and beneficial and of consequence as the next guy's story.  Don't sell yourself short on that.  The hard part is finding out that the seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people - and probably you, too.  Maybe that knowledge won't directly help you slay the current dragons on your list.  But here's what I figured out, and of course, your situation may be entirely different.  Understanding that bad shit happened, and that it happened to you and that our (you and me) group participation also caused bad shit to happen to others, well that's a whole lot to swalllow on just one to two contacts here.  No doubt about that.  Maybe not as harsh as finding out your sister is your mama, but close. :grin:

What I've managed to get from seeing the seed in a different, and yes, it's a much harsher light that some are comfortable with, is that so many of the "tools" were not helpful in the real world context.  And no, I'm no slouch in this life. For instance - the whole concept of honesty, or rather, qualified "seed" honesty.  Sure you could speak "honestly" to another seedling, but only if you followed the formulaic approach.  If you vaired from the honesty dogma, there was hell to pay.  Would you have ever dared to stand up in a group meeting and say "Well, no, I don't agree with that.  I think this...".  I never did that, I saw what happened to people who did that - and for me, it seemed at the time that is was easier and quicker to just go along to get out.  

You know the consequences of what that individualism would have brought and so do I.   So, because I was weak and controlled, I put that shit on my life and on the lives of others for many years, and it made slaying my dragons so much more difficult. Because they weren't real, usable tools - and they only work perfectly in controlled conditions....controlled conditions being the operative words.

Hey, I don't want to discourage your participation here, not by any means. The fact that you have had a successful life so far speaks voulmes about your strength of character and fortitude - which, without even knowing you, I suspect was a part of you long before you ever expereienced the seed.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-02 21:48:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2006-01-01 19:51:00, Anonymous wrote:


Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.

Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

"

  Studies?  No.  A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com

[Anonymous]

I am reminded of something non seed related(not exactly anyway)(true strory here) A freind of mine was hit by a bus. As a result he wanted to sue the the bus company. In order to strengthen his case he diecided being a newlywed would make him more sympathetic to jury should his suit come to trial. I was the best man at his wedding. His suit never came to trial but at my last talking to him he was happily married now ten years later and many good things have happened in life since and perhaps because he got hit by a bus. This does not mean I recomend jumping in front of a bus because you want to make your life better. If a group throws people in front of busses to make their life better I DO find fault with their proccess. So Neil maybe you were one of the ones whos life is better for getting hit by a bus. Please dont pretend like it's a good way to make yor life better. Perhaps you dont want to hear it is not a good thing to get hit by the "bus" of the seed. Maybe you should just crawl back under your rock of denial and let us damged goods people heal ourselves.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-02 21:48:00, Antigen wrote:


"

On 2006-01-01 19:51:00, Anonymous wrote:



Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.

Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.


--Antigen

"

  Studies?  No.  A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com"

Do I detect a bit of animosity in your response?