Author Topic: Another WWASP death  (Read 36083 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2006, 07:55:00 PM »
Quote
That's if you're focusing on the two students in question on the list. This is a small point, in a much larger argument.


We dont know that, we only know of 2, there could be more.  We would have to go back and research each one to raise our level of confidence and then republish the list, set very clear boundary conditions and criteria on how someone gets on the list.  This is the only way the list would have any meaning otherwise it is someones personal journal.

For example if someone gave you a list of kids who died in the State of New York and you picked a name off the list and researched it and found that the boy actually died in Nevada wouldnt you question the entire list?  or would you figure you were lucky and pick out the only mistake on the list and make decisions based on the data?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2006, 08:53:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-09 17:05:00, Exit Plan wrote:

"If someone handed me a list of kids who died at programs similar to the one I went to, I know exactly how those kids died. I've seen the circumstances in which the deaths occur. I know how easily it can happen.



As far as the accuracy of the list, someone took the time to compile it, and yes, I believe it until proved wrong. If you are so determined to do this, do it. Maybe WWASP will even pay you. Until this industry regulates itself, it's impossible to gather any data.



I am not focused on the data, and I don't think lists are even effective. The truth is effective. Stories are effective. Seeing people in person, speak truth with raw emotion is what changes things, not lists.



So I am not focused on any list, or statistics, frankly, because they don't exist. One more time - they do not exist. So why argue about it? I am here to tell my story about SCL, and WWASP, a perpsective that completely differs from WWASP's lies. That is where I am coming from. And in my experience, suicide post-program is a issue that needs to be addressed. You can't lock someone up in the twilight zone for two years with complete dependence on a program- where they couldn't kill themsleves if they wanted to- to a completely free environment and not expect negative results. It's a flawed program.



I know who you are. I've seen the numerous endless discussions about statistics and lists, and I won't to go down that endless road with you. So, good luck with your lists- I already have mine.



Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

--Winston Churchill

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 17:07 ]"
Okay sorry --
Why is everyone so afraid of exposing the truth about these programs?  Everyone talks about it, about the horrors and the stories.  How parents shouldnt send their kids there etc.  Carry torches to burn places down, preclude every death with conspiricy.  
I havent seen anyone step up and say "We are tired of our kids getting hurt, lets start tracking what these places do and present our findings, lets do something"

All we hear is "There is no data....... all the data would be false anyway....... I am convinced the programs are wrong and that is all that matters to me........If you havent been there you wouldnt understand.....parents are idiots for sending their kids there"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2006, 09:28:00 PM »
I would say that the Internet is a great tool for change.  Since discovery-academy-forum.com was created, enrollment has decreased to about half of the numbers they previously maintained with years of consistency.  Exit Plan may not be standing on the steps of Congress, but those like him who take the time to share their experiences are definitely making a difference.  Potential parents can find these sites through simple web searches and now have access to a wealth of information.  Sure, there's some swearing and slurs to wade through, but the underlying messages are scarily consistent from students there in '89 up to '05.  If the program trolls weren't being hit where it hurts (their pocketbooks), I think they'd stick to recruiting and stay out of these forums.  

As others have stated, we may never be able to conduct a valid study on how 100% of students turned out or why they made those choices.  But I think the list of names is much longer than the one from my local public high school, or anyone's local public school, for that matter.  When I hear names like Karl, Zach, and Valerie, I realize that it could be anyone at all, any gender, any race, any location.  I think that parents might think twice about how their kid might end up on this list if they don't act with careful consideration and find their child effective help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2006, 10:29:00 PM »
Quote
parents are idiots for sending their kids there


I didn't see anyone post this, but it's an interesting thought.


You havent been here long.  Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids.  You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.

After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant.  No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".  

Lets keep everything the same so we can show everyone how bad the places are, if we improve them and the kids start doing well where does that leave us?

You should start listening to some of the kids who did well and from what programs and direct parents to their websites etc.

You dont have to change the world overnight, but start having open dialog with the ones that did well and exploit them.  If you give people some info on what is good and bad about each program you will start to get credability....

Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.

Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2006, 10:44:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-09 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


You havent been here long.  Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids.  You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.



After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant.  No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".  

Yes, some people feel that way and say so.  Others feel the way you do and say that.  Sometimes discussions disintegrate into verbal violence....seems to be a byproduct of both the industry and the simple nature of message boards.   But there is a helluva lot of good information here for anyone willing to look.  All opinions are represented here.

Quote
Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts

A lot of them get really scared when you try to get them to apply some critical thinking skills. They suddenly aware that the emperor has no clothes.


 
Quote
and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.

I graduate from the place I was in.  Was considered a *success* for a while.  Until I started to drift out from under their control.  Only THEN did I become a *failure*.

>
Quote
Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.

"


Ah, but it doesn't.  This site serves a purpose. You don't have to agree with everything here to get some valid extremely usefull info and insight here.  If you don't find all of what you're looking for then Nospank serves a purpose.  AskQuestions serves a purpose.  All the Myspace sites popping up serve a purpose.  Its all one little niche that each one serves that adds up to hopefully some kind of realization of what the hell is going on in this industry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Another WWASP death
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2006, 03:22:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-09 16:44:00, Anonymous wrote:



Like yourself the officals are interested in reducing the number of kids killed while at school.  If they can reduce that number it will look good come re-election time.  If programs show a reduced suicide rate then non-programs they will seek funding to send more public sector kids there."


Yes, but they're going about it the same way the Bush admin went looking for WMD; they simply know the Program works and dismiss as lies and manipulation any evidence to the contrary.

Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Another WWASP death
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2006, 03:54:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-09 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.


You seem to feel persecuted, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Anybody expressing any opinion on any topic about which people feel strongly is bound to run into contradictory views, unless there's some effective effort to crush dissent.  

Just because not everyone agrees with you doesn't mean you're persecuted.

As to making the industry better, well we have to start by defining the industry. It ain't edcation, it's not medical, it's something entirely different. I don't think it can be improved, as such, because I've seen this ol'e soft shoe over and over again for the past 20+ years. Look! WWASP and AIR are giving a command performance of it right now.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 4&forum=44

It's a scam, darlin. No matter how hard you wish otherwise or how many times you tap your heels together.

The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2006, 01:48:00 PM »
QUOTE: Does SCL restrain kids? YES. Do they train their staff in the propert technique? NO. So, is there an equally good chance of them killing a kid as the names listed? I would say so. END QUOTE


Training consists of extensive Mandt certification, with regular recertification for ALL staff. This is documented. And the principle behind it is to AVOID restraint unless absolutely necessary for the safety of the child or other children. Even then, the restraints are absolutely minimal. And this is nothing new. SCL has done this for years.


With this, as with all claims pro or con, whether it involves lists of deaths or claims about individual programs, credibility suffers with every inaccuracy. It's not nit-picking. Accuracy lends credibility. Inaccuracies---even small ones--create an impression of hysteria. Drama is a short-term strategy and is largely ineffective.

Consider the possibilty that some of the thousands of people who work at programs--whether it's teaching, counseling, whatever--share with you the hope of helping kids and seeing them get healthy long-term. There are actually folks out there---intelligent, sensitive, hard-working, compassionate--who simply disagree with you on how it should happen.

My suggestion: If you want to see change, go about it respectfully, and look carefully and objectively at what each individual program or school is doing. You would be amazed at how close your goals and theirs are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2006, 02:33:00 PM »
As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification.  I don't know what staff told you that they don't get trained Exit Plan, but they do.  Could your staff have been new and the next training hadn't come up yet?  I can't speak for them, but I can speak for my husband and he is certified and will be doing recertification very soon.

He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL.  He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs.  He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others.  Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others.  There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline p

  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2006, 02:52:00 PM »
we wish for a good place to help kids...but this is not it!!!
i have been there...it is nothing less than a jail, for parents who have money and not the time...
wake up, to the real world and the real harm these places do...go stay there for a month and then write back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7391
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2006, 02:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification.  I don't know what staff told you that they don't get trained Exit Plan, but they do.  Could your staff have been new and the next training hadn't come up yet?  I can't speak for them, but I can speak for my husband and he is certified and will be doing recertification very soon.



He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL.  He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs.  He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others.  Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others.  There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives."


What are your husband's credentials to be working with disturbed kids?

Does he have a master's degree in a mental health discipline?  Most of these places hire seriously underqualified personnel.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The Linchpin Link

Whooter - The Most Prolific Troll Fornits Has Ever Seen - The Definitive Links
**********************************************************************************************************
"Looks like a nasty aspentrolius sticci whooterensis infestation you got there, Ms. Fornits.  I\'ll get right to work."

- Troll Control

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2006, 05:05:00 PM »
Does having a Master's Degree make you any better of a person than someone who doesn't?  Ok, so you went to school and managed to graduate with a degree.  That doesn't change what's in your heart and your intentions.  I have met many people that have a "degree" and they are some of the most vile people I've met.  There is a licensed counselor here in town that is absolutely destroying families.  She is teaching the children she sees some of the most bizarre things I have ever heard.  Does that make her more qualified than my husband to work with kids?  I don't think so.  I never said my husband had all the credentials to be working with these kids, but he has a good heart and is trying to do his best.  

I'm not a troll and I don't agree with everything that goes on at SCL.  That's one of the reasons I left because I couldn't and wouldn't agree with some of their policies. I just don't like the fact that everyone thinks that all the staff that work there are bad apples.  I'm all for making changes in the programs that are out there.  It's why I've been lurking and reading all this information.

I just don't completely agree with either side.  I, for one, never saw some of the things that are written on here ever happen.  Kids aren't kept in the "Hobbit" for days and weeks without food.  They are taken to intervention for a period of about 30 minutes.  If they are compliant then they go back to the family or worksheets.  They do receive meals and water.  I've even taken meals up there before.  I also was up there on many occaisions to look at students that had cuts or scrapes and to take care of them since I was part of the Nursing staff.  They were never denied medical treatment either.  I would even go up there on my breaks to check on kids that I was concerned about.

I didn't agree with some of the consequences that I had to give out while I was a family mom.  Some of them were stupid and petty and I refused to do it.  I then was called a "caretaker" by my supervisor and was told I was being moved into Worksheets to "toughen me up" As far as I was concerned, if caring about these kids made me a caretaker then so be it!  I'm a CARETAKER and proud of it! :grin:

And I will get a screen name as soon as I figure out how to do it properly.  :roll:   I've only posted here one other time I think, so I'm not sure of the procedure. I don't like being Anonymous and since I don't work there anymore I'm not afraid of losing my job over posting on here...now my hubby, that's another story.  He might be the one to suffer for my opinion.
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Anonymous wrote:


"As for the MANDT training at SCL, I know for a fact that it happens since my husband will spend his weekend off getting his recertification.  I don't know what staff told you that they don't get trained Exit Plan, but they do.  Could your staff have been new and the next training hadn't come up yet?  I can't speak for them, but I can speak for my husband and he is certified and will be doing recertification very soon.





He takes his job very seriously and would NEVER attempt to harm one of the students at SCL.  He hates doing restraints and tries to avoid them at all costs.  He has been trained to try all other methods of calming a situation down before it gets to the point of having to restrain someone who is a threat to themselves or others.  Like I've said before, not everyone that works there is an unskilled hick that gets off on hurting others.  There are people like my husband who do actually care and would like to make a difference in these kids lives."




What are your husband's credentials to be working with disturbed kids?



Does he have a master's degree in a mental health discipline?  Most of these places hire seriously underqualified personnel."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7391
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2006, 05:46:00 PM »
Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.  

Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate.  They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids.  They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility.  This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.

I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man.  On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that.  The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY.  He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.

Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders.  It actually exacerbates these problems.  

In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program."  In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.

Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.

Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?  Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present.  That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The Linchpin Link

Whooter - The Most Prolific Troll Fornits Has Ever Seen - The Definitive Links
**********************************************************************************************************
"Looks like a nasty aspentrolius sticci whooterensis infestation you got there, Ms. Fornits.  I\'ll get right to work."

- Troll Control

Offline TheWho

  • Posts: 7256
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2006, 06:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nobody said having a degree makes one a better person.  



Your story is illustrative of how places like SCL operate.  They advertise as a therapeutic community, but when you get down to the brass tacks, there aren't qualified people giving therapy to the kids.  They're cared for by non-professionals who receive their training from the facility.  This is problematic because these people don't have the educational background to assess the effectiveness of the "treatment" they are providing.



I'm not saying your husband isn't a good man.  On the contrary, I take your word for it that he is exactly that.  The problem arises, though, that your husband isn't properly educated to understand when a practice is ABUSIVE or HARMFUL PSYCHOLOGICALLY.  He is simply relying on the trainingg SCL provided him and his bosses' assurances that this type of treatment is what these kids actually need.



Sadly, it is widely known in the mental health community that the type of "treatment" provided by SCL doesn't work to address mental illnesses or mood disorders.  It actually exacerbates these problems.  



In my view it is incumbent upon the direct care givers to recognize that the children are done grave harm by these methodologies, but, unfortunately, they, like your husband, simply aren't equipped to make these judgements, so they just "go with the program."  In this respect, perfectly good people are complicit in the harming of these children, albeit unknowingly at times.



Therein lies the crux of the problem, not in the moral uprightness of the staff.



Remeber the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?  Well, even the best intentioned folks are not automatically equipped to deal with the serious problems with which these kids present.  That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers."
 Lets boil this down a little:

***In my view.........That is the job of true, educated professionals who KNOW what's best for the well being of the children, not good-intentioned, uneducated, unprofessional, unlicensed caretakers." *****

You mentioned that he is a nice guy, great.  But where are *your qualifications* for determining how much education or compassion a person needs for each position?  You left that out.  How well intentioned does a person need to be?  Can a person hold a PHD but dislike children?  Are they disqualified because they spent all there savings aquiring a bachelors degree and want to work their way towards a masters by working with kids or should we send that person packing and hire the PHD guy who only wants to advance his career and move on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7391
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Another WWASP death
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2006, 06:47:00 PM »
Obviously, the people who work there should want to help kids.  If they don't, they have no business working there and shouldn't have been hired.

What I said was the problem with places like SCL is that the people working there are often not qualified to determine what is helpful and what is harmful.  For the money that this place is raking in, I don't see it as far fetched that they should have qualified AND caring staff.  If they paid an adequate wage, they would attract this type of employee.

I would say, though, that places like this DON'T want highly educated staff because the staff would then have legitimate concerns about the "treatment" modality.  Having worked in two of these places, I can say from experience that they would rather have employees athat are easily controlled and who implement the program without question.

The rest of what you said needs clarification because I'm not sure what you're driving at.  It seems more argumentative than anything else.  I think it's fairly obvious that I, as a child advocate, don't believe people who hate children should be working with them and that JUST because one has an education it does not necessarily follow that they are a good fit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The Linchpin Link

Whooter - The Most Prolific Troll Fornits Has Ever Seen - The Definitive Links
**********************************************************************************************************
"Looks like a nasty aspentrolius sticci whooterensis infestation you got there, Ms. Fornits.  I\'ll get right to work."

- Troll Control