Another WWASP death

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids.  This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".

If said hockey camp uses the same degradation and humiliation tactics, limits food intake as punishment, isolates kids from all outside and opposing viewpoints and engages in physical abuse to get their players to perform, then absolutely.

Kids typically do this due to depression and can be triggered by social issues especially when one is young."

and a simple "attitude problem" (read: most likely normal teen angst) is amplified 100x in a place like SCL and it can turn any bright, independent individual into a sullen, depressed and hopeless child creature.

Laws are like spider webs. If some poor weak creature comes up against them - it is caught. But the bigger one can break through and get away.
-- Solon; Greek philosopher - c.630-c.555 BC

[69]

"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".

How did that kid die?

Did his coach kill him? Did he kill himself because he couldn't stand practice anymore?

The kids on the list peviously posted in this thread died from staff incorrectly restraining them and the resulting aphysixiation, drownings, and some of common illnesses that no one today should die of.

Did the kid who died at hockey camp die because his coach tackled him and sat on top of him for so long he stopped breathing and died? Because that is how the majority of kids died on the list you are talking about.

There is a big difference between an accident playing sports, and an 'accident' involvolving a staff member subduing a student without proper training causing death.

Even if one player murdered another player - there is still a big difference between that and the situation we are describing here.

Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?

God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
http://www.perlservices.com' target='_new'>Perl Services

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 11:23 ]

[TheWho]

the suicide of Cory Murphy is known to be about WWASP. He was about to be sent back after being at WWASP. So, that leaves you with ONE questionable name on the list.

But caused by WWASP?  We dont know

So, please, explain to all of us again- why should we ignore a list of 82 DEAD children because you have a problem with how two of them got on the list? Get real, please!

I think I said "This is why the list of kids who died (that someone keeps posting) has no meaning because the only qualifications to make the list is dieing after attending a program and we are all going to die whether we attended or not.
I believe it references the list of kids not the kids themselves (big difference).  If you add just one name that doesnt belong their it throws into question the entire list and renders it meaningless (or you have to research each name for accuracy which most people dont want to do).

How can you say 'chances were it wasn't WWASP', while also arguing the point none of us know?

I think I said "The testimonial was a snap shot in time of how he and his family were doing and it seems after SCL he was doing very well, probably much better than before he went in based on the wording. So chances are it wasnt SCL but another stimuli which caused this.

If you have 10 possibilities and I just quess at one I have a 10% chance of being right.  So If I choose SCL as being the cause there is a 90% probability I am wrong, just basic statistics from raw data, it could just as well be a fight with his girlfriend or an onset of chemical imbalance of some sort.

I just dont see how you can tie the cause of everyones death back to one event in their lives.  The kids died and that is sad but the list is bogus because it has no requirements or conditions in order to be added only the feeling of one person, unless someone does this each name will have to be researched by everyone who reads it which goes against the reason for the list to begin with,  you should creat a list with a title and meaning i.e.

"Kids who died while in the care of Programs"

"Kids who died after attending programs by suicide"

 "Kids who died by suicide who never attended a program"
or combine them all and deliniate by asterisks etc.

Then be clear on who can get added and who cant.  This way the list will have some meaning and comparisons can be made.

But just posting a kids picture because he attended a program and died isnt right.

[69]

I believe it references the list of kids not the kids themselves (big difference)..

Well seeing as the list is all that is left of these kids, as they can't speak up for themslevs, it will have to do for now. Why don't the programs keep their own records? Why isn't their a regulatory agency keeping track? Our govt. has statistics on pretty much everything else, why not this? Why do so-called legitimate programs need to donate so much money to political campaigns - why would a politicians ever be against helping kids, that you would need to influence them with money?

Your right, there is a big difference. These kids are no longer among the living.

If you add just one name that doesnt belong their it throws into question the entire list and renders it meaningless (or you have to research each name for accuracy which most people dont want to do).

I believe the name does belong there. So do many other people. It is you who has a problem with the name. So if you suspect any names on the list to be false, go ahead and do your research. Nobody is paying me enough to do it for you, believe me. If I was a parent about to send my kid way, I would. Wouldn't you? Or better yet, why not ask the programs to keep statistics about kids. Wonder why they don't. :smile:

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:


Antigen -- How can you possibly connect his death to SCL?  

Oh, I can't and I don't. How can you possibly connect these thousands of glowing parent testimonials to anything to do with these programs? You can't. They're meaningless. Fraudulent advertising, if ya ask me.

Same w/ a lot of the recent grads. Ya' know, when I got out of Straight during one of the more notorious HRS investigations, they asked me if I had been abused. I didn't know that I had been and so I declined to involve myself in the criminal investigation. Took me some years to understand that I didn't 'do all the necessary things' to get my nose busted and get sat on by half a dozen girls for a couple of hours just for refusing to make an insincere apology to Group for having tried to escape their 'help'.

 

In a culture based on the oppressive notion that people should be exploited for profit most people can't afford to understand what happened to us in str8.

http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=2506' target='_new'>starry-eyed pirate

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-09 11:20:00, Exit Plan wrote:

"

"This child is just another example of what youth hockey camp does to kids. This boy attended hockey camp last summer and now he is dead, we should close all hockey camps down!!!".

How did that kid die?



Did his coach kill him? Did he kill himself because he couldn't stand practice anymore?



The kids on the list peviously posted in this thread died from staff incorrectly restraining them and the resulting aphysixiation, drownings, and some of common illnesses that no one today should die of.



Did the kid who died at hockey camp die because his coach tackled him and sat on top of him for so long he stopped breathing and died? Because that is how the majority of kids died on the list you are talking about.



There is a big difference between an accident playing sports, and an 'accident' involvolving a staff member subduing a student without proper training causing death.



Even if one player murdered another player - there is still a big difference between that and the situation we are describing here.



Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?

God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

http://www.perlservices.com' target='_new'>Perl Services

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 11:23 ]"

Do you still wish to maintain this comparison - if so - how did the hockey player die, is the coach at fault?

Yes, He died at home 3 months after he came home from camp, by suicide.  The coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.

[Anonymous]

The coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.

And would send your kid to play for this team?

I wouldn't. And I wouldn't send them to SCL either (which is 100 times worse).

That's the whole point.

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-09 13:09:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2006-01-09 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:



Antigen -- How can you possibly connect his death to SCL?  

Oh, I can't and I don't. How can you possibly connect these thousands of glowing parent testimonials to anything to do with these programs? You can't. They're meaningless. Fraudulent advertising, if ya ask me.



Same w/ a lot of the recent grads. Ya' know, when I got out of Straight during one of the more notorious HRS investigations, they asked me if I had been abused. I didn't know that I had been and so I declined to involve myself in the criminal investigation. Took me some years to understand that I didn't 'do all the necessary things' to get my nose busted and get sat on by half a dozen girls for a couple of hours just for refusing to make an incincere apology to Group for having tried to escape their 'help'.



 

In a culture based on the oppressive notion that people should be exploited for profit most people can't afford to understand what happened to us in str8.

http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=2506' target='_new'>starry-eyed pirate

"

I believe every instance is independent and different.  Some kids come out and do poorly at first and then improve others just the opposite.  Some commit suicide and others thrive and have a happy life.  Some kids that do well have parents who think they are doing lousy because they have different expectations and vice versa.

Testimonials are factual for the person giving them , at that time.  The parents may say the program wasnt worth a penny because their kid came home and moved out, but in accuality the kid is doing excellent, happy, has a job, independent.  Other parents may think their kid is doing well and give a positive testimonial and 2 months later he takes his own life.

The kids that do well.... is that due to just time, natural maturity which would have happened anyway without going to a program?

The kids that do poorly or take their lives..... is that the way they are, a chemical imbalance, what would have happened anyway without going to a program?

I dont think we know

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-09 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

The coach was tough on him and made him skate every day when he was running a fever.

And would send your kid to play for this team?



I wouldn't. And I wouldn't send them to SCL either (which is 100 times worse).



That's the whole point."

No you missed the entire point.

We cannot conclude that the hockey camp caused this kid to kill himself

How can you make that connection?  It might have been depression or 100 other social stimuli that causes kids to take their own lives.  There is no connection to SCL the same as there is no connection the the kids death and the hockey camp

[69]

Note how many kids on the list died of exhaustion related causes and drowning. Those camps actually DID WORK the kids to death. While in the facilities custody.

As far as this kid as hockey camp, he could of left, called 911, or numerous other things that a FREE individual might do if they feel they are being mistreated. This is not an option for those locked away, out of sight, out of mind.

Yes, it's sad the kid decided to take his own life. Did he leave a note saying it was because of this hockey camp? Otherwise how do you know, or do you just suspect, as do those on this thread of WWASP. Should I quote your own first post for you?

Hockey camp is not WWASP. You can walk out of hockey camp. Show me a hockey camp that does restraints to keep teens in line. Or one that engages in three day long hysterical LGAT brainwashing sessions. Or one that locks kids up in disgusting isolation holes for indefinite periods of time until they comply with the program. Show me a hockey camp that keeps you locked up for two years. You can't, because the two just don't compare. If this nightmare hockey camp did exist, it would shut down immediately and on all the nightly newsmagazine television shows.

If there were over a thousand hockey camp alumni out there who were now anti-hockey camp, wouldn't you wonder why? If there were a forum as large and busy as fornits dedicated to the horrors of hockey camps, would you not think twice before sending your teen there? If dozens of major media outlets did extensive articles on the abuse and associated lawsuits related to these hockey camps, would you not pause and wonder if this is the best place to send your teen? I sure would, and I think a lot of other parents would too.

The truth is, the two just aren't comparable. Parents, beware!!

PS: Personally, I don't attribute the suicide to SCL until we know. If we ever do. Although, I do know from my own experience there is better treatment out there, and if he was sent somewhere else, that could of made a serious difference.

PSS: It's equally sickening WWASP puts their information up on the web like that. I wonder if they even know?

Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 15:03 ]

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-09 14:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:

"Note how many kids on the list died of exhaustion related causes and drowning. Those camps actually DID WORK the kids to death. While in the facilities custody.



As far as this kid as hockey camp, he could of left, called 911, or numerous other things that a FREE individual might do if they feel they are being mistreated. This is not an option for those locked away, out of sight, out of mind.



Yes, it's sad the kid decided to take his own life. Did he leave a note saying it was because of this hockey camp? Otherwise how do you know, or do you just suspect, as do those on this thread of WWASP. Should I quote your own first post for you?



Hockey camp is not WWASP. You can walk out of hockey camp. Show me a hockey camp that does restraints to keep teens in line. Or one that engages in three day long hysterical LGAT brainwashing sessions. Or one that locks kids up in disgusting isolation holes for indefinite periods of time until they comply with the program. Show me a hockey camp that keeps you locked up for two years. You can't, because the two just don't compare. If this nightmare hockey camp did exist, it would shut down immediately and on all the nightly newsmagazine television shows.



If there were over a thousand hockey camp alumni out there who were now anti-hockey camp, wouldn't you wonder why? If there were a forum as large and busy as fornits dedicated to the horrors of hockey camps, would you not think twice before sending your teen there? If dozens of major media outlets did extensive articles on the abuse and associated lawsuits related to these hockey camps, would you not pause and wonder if this is the best place to send your teen? I sure would, and I think a lot of other parents would too.



The truth is, the two just aren't comparable. Parents, beware!!

Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.

--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 14:20 ]"

I am not denying some of these programs are abusive and should be shut down.  I think Fomits shows this in volumes.
What I believe takes the wind out of our sails is when we make an uncontrolled list of kids who have died and then start adding names of kids who died after leaving on speculation like: "The boy killed himself because he did not want to go back" or "He killed himself because the program screwed him up".

Parents start seeing this and that is why they dont buy the negative media attention.

  kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended.  We just dont know.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-09 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended. We just dont know.

Sure doesn't look that way from where I sit. Almost everyone I know of who's offed themselves I knew them through the Program. So far, none of my "olddruggiefriends" have done that. Not one. I check from time to time.

Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.

--Bob Marley

[69]

We just dont know.

I agree with your entire post. Wouldn't it be nice if we did know? It would be nice if states put in their program legislation that they had to keep statistics or something. Until then, the only contact the alumni have is the internet, which is a god-send IMO. Otherwise we'd have no way of ever networking with each other.

Honestly, even if someone did compile the data and proved the amount of suicides post-program, they would just write it off by saying "these kids were already headed that way anyway, we tried out best to prevent it" and shy away from the idea they had helped cause it. So even if there was proof, would it really make a difference? I already know PTSD contributes to suicidal feelings. But that is just me. So who knows.

kids kill themselves who have never been to a program, in fact for all we know less kids may kill themselves after leaving a program than ones who never attended.

I agree. I would not come out and say as fact, a kid who killed themsleves after the program did so - unless I knew for sure. One thing worth mentioning however, is the regularity at which these suicide posts come up. In all alumni groups and forums and the internet, this seems to be the case. Although with the information we have now one cannot state this as fact, the underlying feeling is there. It would be nice if we had someway of quantifying it.

The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud

[TheWho]

There is growing pressure to reduce the violence and suicide rate among kids in the public sector.  RTC and various programs are being investigated as possible solutions.  From where they are sitting here is what they see:
"From July 1, 1992 to June 30, 2000, 390 school-associated violent deaths occurred on campuses of U.S. elementary or secondary schools. Of these violent deaths, 234 were homicides and 43 were suicides of school-aged youth (ages 5-19). Away from school during roughly the same period, 24,406 children ages 5-19 were victims of homicide and 16,735 children committed suicide. In each school year, youths were at least 70 times more likely to be murdered away from school than at school.

Almost 17,000 kids killed themselves in the 90's and people are demanding a solution

The suicide rate has been climbing the last few years.  If you show a picture of a kid who killed himself they can show you hundreds.  If they can off load more of these kids to RTC or programs they feel they can deter some of these kids from violence or killing themselves they will, if they can get the funding.

.

If you say they killed themselves because of the programs owners or counselors they will see it as all smoke from previous program attendees.  
The good news is they are looking for a model that works well, not nessecarily WWASPs.  The bad news is your message is filled with unregulated data and gut feelings.  Decisions are not made based on feelings

[TheWho]

Myself, I prefer to focused on the kids who died in the program, which are numerous. The statistics you quoted above included nothing about how many teachers killed their students.

Nobody asked, they are just top level stats, no race, gender, locality, teacher kills student, parent kills student, student kills student etc., no speculation on why the students killed themselves, just that they did and at an alarming rate.  

Like yourself the officals are interested in reducing the number of kids killed while at school.  If they can reduce that number it will look good come re-election time.  If programs show a reduced suicide rate then non-programs they will seek funding to send more public sector kids there.