Liscensure Questions

[abc123]

I hope you will entertain more questions.
One that's been discussed at great length is the license issue. Is HLA a traditional boarding school or a theraputic one?

Also why are students kept from communicating unrestricted with their parents? I can understand limiting who they speak with, but not what they say. I myself was often made to rewrite letters if they contained passages such as "this place sucks" or simply "I dont like it here".

As much as I understand your preference for not revealing your name or position. Would you be willing to choose a user name? It would make things easier with communicating.

Again I thank you for your respectful nature and hope that we can continue the civil nature of the conversation. "

Okay, Robert, I have given myself a user name.  I am going to try to answer these two questions to the best of my ability, though I am not sure the answers will be suficient to you.  I will take the easy one first.

Why are students limited on what they can say?  I don't question what you were told when you were at HLA.  That is not my place.  I can only tell you what students are told now.  Ironically, students are specifically told now that they CAN say that they don't like it here.  What they are told they cannot do is be disrespectful or lie.  For example, a student CAN say, "I am so pissed off at my counselor.  He put me on restriction and I don't think he even cares about me."  A student CANNOT say, "My fucking counselor is an asshole.  He put on restrictions for bullshit and told me to piss off because he doesn't care what happens to me."  Now, if a counselor actually said that to a student (which would be highly unlikely), the student has every right to go to an administrator and let them know what was going on and the administration would take care of it.
I hope this anwers your question on this.

The second question is a bit trickier.  I have seen the debates rage on about this.  Again, I will not get into a circular argument over this.  I will let you know my perception from when I was there and let others take it however they wish.

The answer is that HLA is both traditional and therapeutic.  Obviously, HLA is therapeutic.  Noone could ever realistically claim that it is not.  When HLA first sought out accreditation from the Souther Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) it sought to be accredited as a special needs school.  When the SACS committee came visit HLA, THEY suggested that HLA change its application to that of a traditional school.  They suggested this based on their observations.  This is not something that HLA sought out.  When this was suggested, HLA would have been crazy not to follow up on it.  Being accredited as a traditional school would be a huge benefit to its students.  It would mean that any credits they obtained would be able to transfer to any boarding school or college in the country without question.  As you can imagine, this would be huge for the HLA students and would be a wonderful selling point for the school.  I have never understood why people are upset with the school for taking this position.  Perhaps it will help to know that it was at the suggestion of the SACS committee and not HLA seeking this out for themselves.

In terms of people considering HLA to be a RTC, I suppose I can see why people are upset because based on definitions given on this board it would seem to fall into that category (on paper).  However, similar to the situation with SACS, when anyone who investigates HLA in terms of being an RTC comes to campus, they clearly see the difference between the two.  There is no realistic comparison.  If the state really wanted to regulate HLA, the more prudent thing to do would be to create a category between traditional school and RTC, because that is what HLA truly is.  People who argue that point on this board are wasting their time.  The reallity is that HLA is unique and the state is probably not going to spend the time and money developing a whole new set of criteria for a single school.  

I hope this is of some benefit.  These are the facts to the best of my knowledge based on my experiences while at HLA.  I am sure that there will those who take what I have said that tear it up.  That is fine.  I am not going to get into a debate.  They seem to only end up in name calling anyway, and I will not go there.
Take care.
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[RobertBruce]

Thank you again for your courtesy, and for selecting a user name.

May I ask you before I get into your responses how long ago you left HLA?

As to your comments again I appreciate you being the only HLA staffer who is willing to answer questions.

For the first one however I will have to disagree with you. While I was at HLA we were told similar to what you stated that we in our communications with our parents could not lie or be abusive. Apparently there is a great deal of grey area within that criteria. For example the statement, "This is a bad place for me" was deemed a lie, and the statement "I have every right to be angry at you for putting me here" is deemed abusive. I believe the students there are set up to fail when it comes to communicating with their parents. Not only are they limited in what they can say but the parents are told to expect their child to lie about the situation. So if in the event the child is able to communicate how they really feel about HLA or what their experience really is the parents has already decided not to believe them on the advice of the childs counselor.

Although I can understand that a student may make up some outragous claim simply as a way of getting out of HLA, occasionaly they tell the truth as well. Every story has two sides but parents arent able to hear either one. I feel that perhaps a solution would be if the child is flat out lying and says that says...."Dear Mom this week I was gang raped and my counselor claimed it was theraputic." Now hopefully this is a lie, such a thing should not be allowed to be mailed out. However say a child says..."Dear Mom, in reals this week my counselors ganged up on me and bullied me the entire three hours trying to get me to cop guilt to something I didnt do." Now normally such a letter would not go out. Why not let it go out but with the counselors version of things along with it? That way the parent can get both versions and decide for themselves?

I just still feel if HLA has nothing to hide they would allow the child to communicate with the parents without fear of reprisal.

Now onto the next question. There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the accredidation mostly from the pro HLA people. We on the opposite side have never really questioned the issue. Our concern lies with how HLA represents itself on the state level. The evidence to date shows that HLA claims to be a traditional boarding school to ORS, yet advertises as a theraputic school to the rest of the world. I can accept that HLA is not truly either a theraputic or traditional, however why not be forthright about it with the state and at least follow the regs for a theraputic boarding school since it certianlly contains those elements?

Okay let me know about those, also I'd like to if you are still willing to discuss the rationing of food and the use of forced labor as a punishment.

[abc123]

I will get to the other questions later...
But in regards to rationing of food and forced labor, I will respond.

Food Rationing-  At one time there was such a thing as "restrictions meals".  This consisted of cheese sandwiches and soup, with water to drink.  This was discontinued some time ago, though I am not sure when.  Now at HLA restrictions eat the same dinner as the rest of the students body with the exception of dessert.  They eat in the lodge, prior to the time the rest of the student body eats.  At lunch time there is absolutely no difference in those students on restrictions and those off of restrictions.

Forced Labor-  Yes.  Students do hard work while on restrictions.  This is a double edged sword at times.  I hear people complain that HLA is using kids to imporve their campus.  I also hear complaints from students who have done mind numbing work such as moving a pile of rocks from one place to another and then back again.  The later should never happen at HLA, though I will not make the argument that it has never happened.  What restrictions routinely do at HLA is work that is meant to be productive.  This may be clearing the woods of fallen limbs, or cutting up fallen trees with a chainsaw and then turning it into fire wood.  It may be spreading mulch to help the landscape look better.  The point is, their work is supposed to be something that the kids can look back on and take pride in.  It is definitely not a money saving issue.  HLA also employees a professional landscaping service that is on campus all the time.  HLA really wants the kids to take pride in their work.
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[abc123]

"For the first one however I will have to disagree with you. While I was at HLA we were told similar to what you stated that we in our communications with our parents could not lie or be abusive. Apparently there is a great deal of grey area within that criteria. For example the statement, "This is a bad place for me" was deemed a lie, and the statement "I have every right to be angry at you for putting me here" is deemed abusive. I believe the students there are set up to fail when it comes to communicating with their parents. Not only are they limited in what they can say but the parents are told to expect their child to lie about the situation. So if in the event the child is able to communicate how they really feel about HLA or what their experience really is the parents has already decided not to believe them on the advice of the childs counselor. "

You are right is saying that it is a grey area.  My personal preference as a counselor, and many other counselors, was to do exactly as you stated.  Let both sides be heard and trust that the parents can dicipher truth from fiction.  Their comes a point, however, when all you are doing is arguing and defending and you have to say enough is enough and insist that everyone move on.  Otherwise, the child (and often the parents) will stay in an arguement indefinitely not realizing that this is where they are comfortable.  The reality is for them, that as long a they can keep arguing about the petty stuff, they don't have to face the real issues.  It is the therapist job to help everyone cut through the BS and focus on the real issues at hand.  Sometimes this means controling the conversation.

Please understand, I sympathize with your frustrating over this and I don't pretend to know what your personal experience was.  Perhaps, you should have been allowed to express more of what you needed to say.  Maybe not.  I wasn't there.  At least, I don't think I was there.   :wink:
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[RobertBruce]

I appreciate your honesty on both issues.

As to the physical labor part, I dont have an issue with students being made to do landscaping or assorted work, I agree with you that it does instill a sense of pride. However when used in the punitive sense I feel it does almost no good, and since according to state regs for theraputic boarding schools, it is in fact illegal.

Ill hold off on any further discussion of that though until you get a chance to address that point.

I may have missed it but are you willing to state when you were at HLA?

[Troll Control]

"abc123"?  you're kidding, right?  sounds a little bit condescending, no?

are you here to teach the abc's and 123's the hla way?  because i can tell ya that there are quite a few things you say that are upside-down and backwards from the reality that i know.  

i couldn't help but notice how you answered the questions, either.  the typical responses.  "that USED to happen, but not anymore.."  same old game, still pretty lame.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-27 12:13:00, abc123 wrote:

"
I can only tell you what students are told now.  Ironically, students are specifically told now that they CAN say that they don't like it here.  What they are told they cannot do is be disrespectful or lie.  For example, a student CAN say, "I am so pissed off at my counselor.  He put me on restriction and I don't think he even cares about me."  A student CANNOT say, "My fucking counselor is an asshole.  He put on restrictions for bullshit and told me to piss off because he doesn't care what happens to me."  Now, if a counselor actually said that to a student (which would be highly unlikely), the student has every right to go to an administrator and let them know what was going on and the administration would take care of it.

The problem with this is that if the counselor DID  tell the student to "piss off" because he really didn't care about the kid (I agree, highly unlikely) and the student tried to go to an administrator, the student would NEVER be believed.  
It's always the counselor's word against the kid's. And the counselor is always right. No matter what the issue. And no matter what the kid tells the parent about the counselor or the school in general - the kid is lying. That's what the school gets parents to believe. I'm a parent. My kid was there for a long time. They had me believing everything he said was a lie. I'm learning now that HLA manipulates parent against child.  Any and all trust between parent and child is destroyed.

My kid was NOT abused.  I know that.  He was there for a long time and thanks to some incrediby caring and talented people he is a healthy person today. He wasn't starved, hit, locked up, made to do manual labor for hours on end, physically or sexually abused. He's been home for quite a while so I know everything that went on - the good and the bad. I'm not getting on the "TBSs are abusive facilities that should all be shut down" bandwagon.  But there is alot wrong with the place.

[RobertBruce]

The above post is 100% correct.

[Anonymous]

>>>I'm learning now that HLA manipulates parent against child. Any and all trust between parent and child is destroyed.<<<

This was my experience as well.

>>>The problem with this is that if the counselor DID tell the student to "piss off" because he really didn't care about the kid (I agree, highly unlikely) and the student tried to go to an administrator, the student would NEVER be believed.<<<

This is a significant wrong, and common practice in the industry from the beginning. That the kids have no ally, once parents are turned against them, they are left extremely vulnerable. Given that this aspect is necessary to hla's 'success', seems doubtful that it will ever change. And how would one ever substantiate that it was no longer happening, without outside monitoring?

[abc123]

On 2005-12-27 13:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
""abc123"?  you're kidding, right?  sounds a little bit condescending, no?

are you here to teach the abc's and 123's the hla way?  because i can tell ya that there are quite a few things you say that are upside-down and backwards from the reality that i know.  

i couldn't help but notice how you answered the questions, either.  the typical responses.  "that USED to happen, but not anymore.."  same old game, still pretty lame."

It was the most random thing that I thought of in the five seconds of thought that I put into what name I was going to use.  No hidden meaning.
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[SHH Anon Classics]

But what if it is the truth? Something that used to happen but now has been changed or been made better? Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that the goal? To make things better for future students?

[abc123]

On 2005-12-27 13:26:00, RobertBruce wrote:
"I appreciate your honesty on both issues.

As to the physical labor part, I dont have an issue with students being made to do landscaping or assorted work, I agree with you that it does instill a sense of pride. However when used in the punitive sense I feel it does almost no good, and since according to state regs for theraputic boarding schools, it is in fact illegal.

Ill hold off on any further discussion of that though until you get a chance to address that point.

I may have missed it but are you willing to state when you were at HLA?"

Are there state regs for therapeutic boarding schools?  Not rtc's, but tbs's.  I am not aware of any.  If there are I would love to see them.  Where would I find them?

I am not willing to say when I was there.  Too revealing.  I am getting people dumping on me for the user name that took me five seconds to pick.  
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[RobertBruce]

Fair enough. There are indeed regs for theraputic boarding schools. I believe they have been posted on here several times. If not they can be found by contacting the ORS of GA.

[abc123]

On 2005-12-27 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

On 2005-12-27 12:13:00, abc123 wrote:

I can only tell you what students are told now.  Ironically, students are specifically told now that they CAN say that they don't like it here.  What they are told they cannot do is be disrespectful or lie.  For example, a student CAN say, "I am so pissed off at my counselor.  He put me on restriction and I don't think he even cares about me."  A student CANNOT say, "My fucking counselor is an asshole.  He put on restrictions for bullshit and told me to piss off because he doesn't care what happens to me."  Now, if a counselor actually said that to a student (which would be highly unlikely), the student has every right to go to an administrator and let them know what was going on and the administration would take care of it.

The problem with this is that if the counselor DID  tell the student to "piss off" because he really didn't care about the kid (I agree, highly unlikely) and the student tried to go to an administrator, the student would NEVER be believed.  

It's always the counselor's word against the kid's. And the counselor is always right. No matter what the issue. And no matter what the kid tells the parent about the counselor or the school in general - the kid is lying. That's what the school gets parents to believe. I'm a parent. My kid was there for a long time. They had me believing everything he said was a lie. I'm learning now that HLA manipulates parent against child.  Any and all trust between parent and child is destroyed.

My kid was NOT abused.  I know that.  He was there for a long time and thanks to some incrediby caring and talented people he is a healthy person today. He wasn't starved, hit, locked up, made to do manual labor for hours on end, physically or sexually abused. He's been home for quite a while so I know everything that went on - the good and the bad. I'm not getting on the "TBSs are abusive facilities that should all be shut down" bandwagon.  But there is alot wrong with the place."

In a sense you are right.  There is a tendency to believe the staff over the student.  I do disagree with you when you say that the student is never believed.  What the families and kids, perhaps unfortunately, can never see is the behind the scences investigations and follow up that happens when any allegations are made.  Staff are questioned and disciplined at times when there has been innapropriate behavior(which is rare).  There have been times when staff have been suspended and even let go.  Those situations have to be left behind closed doors, however, for legal reasons.  Have there ever been times when something has happened and a student was not beleived? I'm sure there has been, and that is unfortunate.   For the vast majority of the time, the staff at HLA are extremely professional and caring.
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[Anonymous]

>>>Are there state regs for therapeutic boarding schools? Not rtc's, but tbs's. I am not aware of any. If there are I would love to see them. Where would I find them?<<<

Can you point to one state that has regulations specific to TBSs?
I've read a number of state regs and have never seen that.
The catagories are usually Childcare Centers, Childcare Homes, Foster Homes, Outdoor or Wilderness Therapy, and Residental Treatment Facilities [aka Residential Childcare, etc]. The latter being 24 hour care in an institution away from home.

Have you read ORS regs? They're pretty lenient. Why do you feel they aren't appropriate for HLA?
Would you place your own child in a program with no monitoring or oversight?