Dear Art,

[jgar]

On 2005-10-07 11:53:00, Antigen wrote:

"Lauderdale, maybe our buddies here are right about us. I sort of played it the same way on my program to the extent that I thought prudent. I never overtly broke a rule or dissented or disrupted things in any way. My mission and strategy was to prove that I was quite straight enough, thank you, and could take anything they had to dish out w/o flinching. But when it came down to things like food restrictions and other nasty deeds in the host home to enforce compliance in group, I'd take my chances and throw down the gauntlet w/ old staffisms like "leave group in the building". I don't remember ever having been called down on things like that, either.

Here's freedom to him who would read;
 
Here's freedom to him who would write;

None ever feared that the truth should be heard,

But them that the truth would indict.


--author unknown (circa 1914)

"Hey Ginger,

There were some basic differences in the why?s we did things during our time while we were on the program. I do not mean this with any type of disrespect to you and I can clearly see the origins of your attitudes toward this matter. Perhaps if I had an over domineering mother looking for a place to be a cure all for her young child I might have adopted your same attitude.

    I viewed the Seed as sacred ground because I credit it for teaching me valuable lessons in which I still apply and use as my basic foundation. I remember (As a distant memory) the despair and hopelessness I lived with and the only thing that would clear up my confusing was by getting numb toward my overwhelming insecurities and (by than) full blown fears and phobias. I took what was talked about as very important and applied to the best of my abilities. what I was taught and. with what I learned and I noticed as I applied these things so I began to change. I began to laugh and smile again and feel secure with who I was (something that I was never able to do and nothing short of a miracle).

    My motives were not just to comply but to understand and to actually change. I honestly enjoyed the people and the companionship. Thought what was being talked about was actually important.

   I?ve posted here many times the reasons why I left, the various flaws and hypocrisies that I witnessed during my time and I will be the first to admit I still have a crazy side but, overall the Seed did what it was suppose to do and for that I am forever grateful.      

I can go on but it?s Friday. (Happy Columbus Day :smokin:  :smokin:

[Anonymous]

Dear Art,

I held my load for 11 years because of you. I didn't masturbate because I was living with a bunch of guys that would have frankly beat my ass over in those apartments if I even mentioned my cock except in the context of how awfull it was to have sex back on the streets, how degrading and humiliating. So I stuffed it for years.


I coped to be sure.  I played tennis, golfed, played ping pong, swam, anything and everything to relieve the tension and to take my mind off of the fact that my sexuality was dying a slow death. Sure, I got good at most of those things but something was missing and I was getting this huge knot in my groin area.  Meanwhile, I was cooped up with a bunch of men every day and every night and made to feel guilty whenever I even looked at a woman. Talk about a confused message!

Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I split. The first night I was free I was in the motel 6 up in Boca Grande on my way home to see my family that I hadn't spoke to in years. I was sleeping pretty peacefully I must admit and in my dream I saw a beautiful young lady and realized that yes, I was alone and safe from the judgement of all those guys and SPROONG. Quickly I relieved myself and splatted all over. GROSS! I lost 2 pounds right then and there and almost blew my head off.

I knew once again I was back to the land of normal and never did I let a day go buy that I didn't think of sex.

You guys should rot in hell for making me hold that load.

Signed.

Skippy

[Thom]

On 2005-10-07 14:40:00, jgar wrote:

"

On 2005-10-07 11:53:00, Antigen wrote:



"Lauderdale, maybe our buddies here are right about us. I sort of played it the same way on my program to the extent that I thought prudent. I never overtly broke a rule or dissented or disrupted things in any way. My mission and strategy was to prove that I was quite straight enough, thank you, and could take anything they had to dish out w/o flinching. But when it came down to things like food restrictions and other nasty deeds in the host home to enforce compliance in group, I'd take my chances and throw down the gauntlet w/ old staffisms like "leave group in the building". I don't remember ever having been called down on things like that, either.

Here's freedom to him who would read;

 

Here's freedom to him who would write;



None ever feared that the truth should be heard,



But them that the truth would indict.





--author unknown (circa 1914)

"Hey Ginger,



There were some basic differences in the why?s we did things during our time while we were on the program. I do not mean this with any type of disrespect to you and I can clearly see the origins of your attitudes toward this matter. Perhaps if I had an over domineering mother looking for a place to be a cure all for her young child I might have adopted your same attitude.



    I viewed the Seed as sacred ground because I credit it for teaching me valuable lessons in which I still apply and use as my basic foundation. I remember (As a distant memory) the despair and hopelessness I lived with and the only thing that would clear up my confusing was by getting numb toward my overwhelming insecurities and (by than) full blown fears and phobias. I took what was talked about as very important and applied to the best of my abilities. what I was taught and. with what I learned and I noticed as I applied these things so I began to change. I began to laugh and smile again and feel secure with who I was (something that I was never able to do and nothing short of a miracle).



    My motives were not just to comply but to understand and to actually change. I honestly enjoyed the people and the companionship. Thought what was being talked about was actually important.



   I?ve posted here many times the reasons why I left, the various flaws and hypocrisies that I witnessed during my time and I will be the first to admit I still have a crazy side but, overall the Seed did what it was suppose to do and for that I am forever grateful.      



I can go on but it?s Friday. (Happy Columbus Day :smokin:  :smokin:



"

I'll second that. (except for the Columbus Day thing, because I'm not Columbian)

[Thom]

On 2005-10-07 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Dear Art,



I held my load for 11 years because of you. I didn't masturbate because I was living with a bunch of guys that would have frankly beat my ass over in those apartments if I even mentioned my cock except in the context of how awfull it was to have sex back on the streets, how degrading and humiliating. So I stuffed it for years.





I coped to be sure.  I played tennis, golfed, played ping pong, swam, anything and everything to relieve the tension and to take my mind off of the fact that my sexuality was dying a slow death. Sure, I got good at most of those things but something was missing and I was getting this huge knot in my groin area.  Meanwhile, I was cooped up with a bunch of men every day and every night and made to feel guilty whenever I even looked at a woman. Talk about a confused message!



Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I split. The first night I was free I was in the motel 6 up in Boca Grande on my way home to see my family that I hadn't spoke to in years. I was sleeping pretty peacefully I must admit and in my dream I saw a beautiful young lady and realized that yes, I was alone and safe from the judgement of all those guys and SPROONG. Quickly I relieved myself and splatted all over. GROSS! I lost 2 pounds right then and there and almost blew my head off.



I knew once again I was back to the land of normal and never did I let a day go buy that I didn't think of sex.



You guys should rot in hell for making me hold that load.



Signed.



Skippy"

Keep coming, Skippy!

[GregFL]

:wave:  :grin:  :grin:

[marshall]

On 2005-10-07 06:49:00, cleveland wrote:

"In my era the Seed was a relatively benign place in terms of the 'bad stuff' and had some real benefits for people - the 'good stuff.' So depending upon where you were coming from as a kid, and where you were going, the Seed either had some benefit to you, or a possible down side, if you lost the opportunity to go to college or get married or other good things that might have been coming to you. It is all relative. It seems to me that in the Seed during a rapid growth period (the early 70s) things got a little crazier, and also in later Straight or other offshoot programs (man, kids are getting abused - and I am not talking about eating PB&J sandwiches - I mean rape, physical abuse,etc.)



See, I think the heart of the debate here revolves around human nature. We need to belong! To the degree that we make compromises to belong, we are acting 'cult' like. Almost every human activity, when viewed from the outside, looks ridiculous. So if you dropped down from Mars, and observed a High School marching band, a middle school lunch table, a corporate meeting, a Marine Corp. bootcamp, a married couple arguing, whatever - it would all look absurd. Remember your first day of school? Remember seeing all the cliques, jocks and nerds, cheerleader and freaks, greasers, whatever it was when you were there? Or the first day of a new job? Maybe you are more social than I am, but to me it takes me a while to warm up to new social situations - to decide what parts of me don't 'fit in' and to choose to display them or not.



So whatever cult you choose - be it AA, Baptist religion, the Green Party, NORML, Jews for Jesus - or maybe it's just the cult of your family - to some degree we ALL make compromises. We HAVE to. Don't tell me you don't bite your tongue sometimes with your spouse or your kids to keep the peace or to avoid embarrasmet. Well, when I was a Seedling, avoiding conflict with staff or protecting Art's aura of invincibility was just as important to me.



Now, if we can all agree that our human activity is all a bit cult-like, than we can drop the argument about is the Seed a 'cult.' What we have left is the degree of COERCION. To the degree that I am coerced to follow the dictates of my family, religion, job or friends (and there will almost always be some coercion - even if it's just subtle pressure to conform) I will come to a point where I will sacrifice my humanity. But that will be different for each of us. Joining a street gang or becoming a cop or a Marine has a different standard and intensity than having lunch with my aunt, but it's really just a matter of degree, isn't it?



WE can still debate the value of the Seed or similar programs, but I think it's important that we recognise that both good and bad can come out of this human need to belong.



"

Hi Walter. I agree that there are serious questions about where you draw the line in various human behaviours as to which group is or isn't a cult or how cultic it is. There is no real agreement amongst sociologists or psychologists about this either.

Here's great link that explores this issue of "what is a cult?" in-depth. It took awhile to slog thru it all but it was informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

Wherever you choose to draw that line, it does seem that the Seed became more cultic as time went on. Yes, that is a value judgement on my part...which is why I said from my own pov. I grew up in rural Kentucky surrounded by some form of this.  Lots of my extended family members became involved with small churches headed by charismatic preachers. Many of these guys were very definite about what sort of behaviour was expected in their church. If you didn't conform, you were banished from the church and shunned...much like the Seed. My aunt and uncle were told to get rid of their TV...it's an agent of Satan. No make-up or pants for women. No long hair or beards for men. No rock music...only gospel. Theologically, you were expected to agree with the preacher or leave. Sound familiar? I think that this may be one reason I quickly became disillusioned with the Seed. It looked like the same crap in a different package and struck me very much as a sort of religion.

Again, I have no problem with adults choosing to do this as long as no overt coercion is involved. I've found similar behaviour in some followers of eastern gurus. There are cases where the all-knowing guru chooses your spouse and vocation. He or she (most are male) is regarded as semi-divine or perfect and never to be questioned. As you point out, it's human behaviour and not tied to chrisitanity, hinduism or self-help groups. I simply have no desire to be involved with any group that is cult-like to that degree.

And yes, it's a matter of degree. The rotary club may be cultic to one degree and the people's temple cultic to another. In my view, the Seed seemed to travel along those lines from mild in the very beginning to extreme near the end. We all make compromises, but the degree to which we compromise in order to belong does make a difference. It can be like saying; 'well, everyone is basically selfish...it's human nature. Therefore it's OK for me to rob this bank." or " Since all institutions or groups (including families or this website) are cultlike to some degree....there's no difference between being a member of AA and Aum Shinrikyo." This is how the assertion that 'this website is a cult' strikes me. Perhaps we should jettison the C word entirely and come up with a different way of describing cult-like behaviour. It's like the term; "Brainwashing". It has such strong negative connotations and no-one seems to agree on what it means.

It should be emphasized that criticism of the Seed program does not = attacks on the people. John noted that some of his defense of the Seed resulted from his close feelings of friendship with fellow seedlings...as if criticism of the program meant denunciation of the people we care / cared about. I don't think that is the case with most of us.

[cleveland]

Marshall,

I think the main reason for my post was to emphasize that we can confuse the issue by using a term like 'cult' unless we really agree on the meaning of the term. Also I think it is important to acknowledge the common humanity of all of us who post here as well as of those who started,staffed, attended, and left the Seed. I am not suggesting that everything is equal when it comes to what we give up to belong to groups, but that there are features in common which those different experiences share.  

Walter

[marshall]

Thanks for the clarification. I saw what you were getting at in regard to defining the word 'cult'. That's why I posted that link. It explores the problems assoiciated with trying to define it and gives several points of view. I do think there's more to it than just coercion though. The Seed seems to have become less overtly coercive as time went on yet more controlling and self-enclosed. Perhaps the coercion simply became more subtle.

You mentioned the In-group Out-group thing in another post. I remembered reading about in- groups and out-groups, the psychology and sociology associated with this when I returned to school as an oldcomer. I also recall that it struck me at the time that it was very descriptive not only of the 'drug culture' but that it was also descriptive of the Seed itself. Us vs Them. Those druggie assholes, etc. Us, special, chosen seedlings with more insight and awareness. Reading and thinking about that was one of the cracks in the wall for me. 'We' can't be special and good unless we compare ourselves to 'them' that are common and evil. All of it seems to arise from insecurity and ego.

Ironically, the relation between these (insecurity and ego) was an insight gained from the Seed raps. I simply applied some of the same rigorous honesty that seemed to be reserved for our druggie past to my seedling present. Like jgar and others have said, I also learned from much that was discussed at the Seed. I think I gained more from it after I left the program though. It was only then that I began to sort out what seemed true and useful from what seemed cultic, mistaken or just irrelevant. If I'd remained involved with the group I think it would have been difficult to form my own ideas about things and grow. We were bombarded with a one-sided or narrow interpretation of such concepts as honesty, ego, images, love, relationships, etc. and told not to pick and choose.

[GregFL]

Cults share many common traits including but not limited to....


redefining words to give them special meaning.

Exclusionary "member and everyone else" definitions.

Non questioning authority of the group. Questioning or doubting is quickly and severly dealt with.

Automatic love and friendship to members, automatic scorn, Banishment and ostracation upon leaving.

usually a mystical element and/or a religious element that imparts a quality that non-members do not have and often do not understand. (awareness in the seed).

A consensus that pre membership your life was bad, and now your life is good.

Family is secondary to the group. If the family doesn't support and/or join along with you, you are often told to cut contact with them.

A common bonding element Ie: religion, self-help or rehab.

usually a leader that supposedly has special knowledge, special contact with mystical or religious elements, or special capacities of understanding.  


This is the short list......

BTW, anyone else have more than a passing interest in the comments by cult member Tom Cruise?

Just look at this guy, he is successfull beyond compare, has a beautiful young wife, a new baby, millions of dollars, and on and on. Yet his thinking is mired down in scientology, he spews forth the scientology line with abandon. His thinking on certain subjects has become the official version of truth as told by the scientology church.

On the flipside, who could possible counter him and say, "see..look how scientology screwed up your life".

It hasn't. Cult membership WORKS for some people. I think that is one truth we should all agree on.

For others it is a disaster. I wish we could agree on that as well.

[Antigen]

My most persistant thought on Tom Cruise and his new wife is "Oh my god! We're about to watch them sacrifice a baby to their wack 'medical' beliefs."

I hope not, but I don't hold out much hope.

There never was a good war or a bad peace.

--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)

[cleveland]

To parahrase someone else, saying that Tom Cruise is a successful Scientologist is like saying that Albert Speer was the best Nazi.

Ha Ha! And for the record, I detest Tom C. as an actor. He sucks.

But if you visit LA, you will see gorgeous mansions now owned by Scientology -  very successful. Someday, it will either fall apart, of maybe become a legit religion. (Sometimes it's hard to see the difference!)

I think Greg's list of cult characteristics can apply to many other groups like cops, Marines, gang members, and cheerleaders. Point well taken though - there are some groups which have clearly crossed the line. I bet many members don't see it coming. I don't think anyone joined Jim Jones' cult just so they could drink the Koolaid.

Walter

[GregFL]

On 2005-10-08 10:24:00, cleveland wrote:

"To parahrase someone else, saying that Tom Cruise is a successful Scientologist is like saying that Albert Speer was the best Nazi.


Walter"

I don't think that is really a fair comparison, Walter.

First, I detest the rantings of Tom Cruise and to a lesser extent the other celebrity Scientologists.  What I am saying is that, like him, hate him, or neutral, he is the living embodiement of a successfull cultist. Those who claim that cult association is automatic doom and gloom are thinking in black and white. :It isn't.

[GregFL]

BTW, I think his acting sucks too, especially his last movie.

[GregFL]

On 2005-10-08 10:24:00, cleveland wrote:



I think Greg's list of cult characteristics can apply to many other groups like cops, Marines, gang members, and cheerleaders.

Walter"

Most "gangs" are just rudimentary cults..I will give you that one.  The other ones in your list no way, not even close.

[Antigen]

No, cops too. They're getting more ganglike every day. Especially where you live, Greg. Just pay attention to the similarities in logic[sic] and attitudes among those ones who wear those Wackenhut colors all over the country.

Or ask Howard Wooldridge or any other cop who's come out against the drug war. They'll tell ya'.

But there are definitely degrees of control. And there are other no less important aspects of the whole dynamic. An equitable and mutually beneficial arrangement among any number of people for any sort of purpose can be high demand, exclusive and regimented. It may well even fall easily over the line of most people's definition of a cult. But it's not necessarily a bad thing so long as involvement is voluntary and, as I say, mutually beneficial and equitable.

Here's freedom to him who would read;
 
Here's freedom to him who would write;

None ever feared that the truth should be heard,

But them that the truth would indict.


--author unknown (circa 1914)