Dear Art,

[cleveland]

Ginger,

I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old. Lauderdale feels that to this day. But anyway, there is a reason that we all became Seedlings, it was very attractive to us to be a part of something and to stand against society. And also we were scared of the alternatives. But you were a kid, so it was a very different thing for you.

I try to remember that at one time, I really believed (or tried hard to believe) everything I learned at the Seed. The fact that I question those things now, and believe that many of the rules and unsaid behaviors that I followed then were wrong or only half-right; that doesn't change the fact for me that I was a part of it. I believed it; I lived it. (Greg really captured the feeling of it in his first post about riding down the street in his oldcomer's car with a Seed Loves You plate and with his smokes rolled into his sleeve. Great post, Greg!)

But anyway, I am really the same essential person now as I was when I was telling everybody I loved them and they had to get straight. I wasn't a zombie, I was just being loyal. That was my life. What I do has changed, but who I am has not (hopefully I am a bit wiser). Do you know what I mean?

So, I can't be all, 'The Seed Sucks' or 'I love the Seed' - I did love it, and it sucked. Make sense?

Anyway, you were a kid, so it was different I am sure.

W

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Antigen, I really can't understand your question and you said ..."So thank you, Art, for sharing your wisdumb and worldview. If it hadn't been for you, I might have just grown up like a normal kid and, like most our former family friends and neighbors, graduated highschool, married a local boy, raised kids, gone into business, etc. I must say (and I'm only being half snide here) this path has been, by far and away, more interesting, even if it has probably been more difficult. Either way, here I am today. I wouldn't want to change one detail for fear of never even knowing the joys of living the life I have now."...
I'm being serious,  with everything that was going on in your family do you really think you would have had just a regular old everyday childhood and Beave & Wally would have just been the big brothers you always wanted and Ward and June would have given you her pearls someday?  I'm not being sarcastic.  I think things still would have been wierd.  I'm glad I got out of my family when I did and glad I got reinvolved when I did.  I remember my father before he went to AA calling me at the seed because I quit college and he was telling me I was suicidal over and over again between burps. I told him to Fu-- off.  I had nothing to do with him for a couple of years. My own mother ripped me off of a small trust fund.  I didn't spk to her for years either.  Its all water under the bridge now.  It seems like that was another lifetime.  My family was never normal.  My mom was in and out of nuthouses when I was a kid.  She'll be 80 this year more sane than ever.  I don't get it.  She just needed a few bucks in her pocket to make her feel right about herself and believe me it really made the difference somehow.
Normal what the fu-- is that?  
I guess I have it as normal as ever now and like you I would not trade a minute of it for what I have now.  So maybe that is the Middle ground.


Greg, this may seem odd, but I know we would have been friends at the seed.  I like you too. I said it before.  You have just the right amount of smart ass to be fun. (Ok maybe a little too much)

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Sorry for all the stuff Walt.  I just hated the fake letters.

[GregFL]

On 2005-10-06 13:17:00, cleveland wrote:

"Ginger,



I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old. Lauderdale feels that to this day. But anyway, there is a reason that we all became Seedlings, it was very attractive to us to be a part of something ...

You are from a different era and of a different age than most of us from the early 70s.

The average seedling in the seed's heyday, and 1973/74 Was the seed's heydey, was a kid involuntarity held against his will about 15 or 16 years of age.  There were also the exceptions, young adults up to say 22 (usually court ordered for serious offenses) and kids as young as 9.

But the seed once upon a time was really almost entirely non-addicted kids being held against their will because they were "druggies".  All that idealism quickly vanished on graduation when the average seedling tried to regain his or her life and fit in with junior or high school life.



(they admitted somewhere around HALF of all seedlings EVER admitted during this time).

[GregFL]

On 2005-10-06 13:36:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Sorry for all the stuff Walt.  I just hated the fake letters."

And I really thought they were GREAT!

 :grin:

[GregFL]

BTW Walter, anyone who describes seedlings as "zombies" really is way off the mark.


I was a seedling. There was a time I bought into it hook line and stinker. Granted, it was a short period of time between trying to con my way home and trying to wait out graduation without getting started over.. but hey, I was there also and I was affected by all the hoopla.  I believed all that seed army fantasy crap too my man.

Zombie no, but brainwashed yes.   how could you not be?  The effect of all those combined "techniques" was overwhelming, at least for me, at least for a while.
 
These techniques are proven to exact a change, at least in the short haul, for most people. There is also an extreme amount of collateral damage, especially for people who are young,overly involved, mentally ill, not addicts, emotionally weak, ego deprived, or any other number of things that can cause someone to negatively react to those extreme conditions.

One size, while working for some, NEVER fit all.  That was one of the biggest lies told, that you could just throw your kid in there in the care of Art Y Co and automatically get a new improved version back..all for $250 bucks.

Bullschnit!

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-06 13:17:00, cleveland wrote:

"Ginger,



I can't imagine being a little kid and being around the Seed. I rarely hear you talk about the feelings of excitement, closeness, and 'we're changing the world!' but you must have felt some of that, too. I know I did as a cynical 19 yer old.

Well yeah, I did. But it backfired on me soooo bitterly that it sort of takes all the glow off of it. More than anything, I'm embarrased and regratful over the way I went around thinking I was better than all those "druggie" kids I went to school with.

So, I can't be all, 'The Seed Sucks' or 'I love the Seed' - I did love it, and it sucked. Make sense?

Perfect sense.

"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)

--Bastard Administrator

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-06 13:28:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen, I really can't understand your question and you said ...

What question?

I'm being serious,  with everything that was going on in your family do you really think you would have had just a regular old everyday childhood and Beave & Wally would have just been the big brothers you always wanted and Ward and June would have given you her pearls someday?  I'm not being sarcastic.  

I know, that's what's surprising. Don't you know that Leave it to Beaver was just a TV show? They had sexless procreation and no toilets. It wasn't real. No such people ever did existed. In the real world (i.e. my neighborhood, my school) plenty of kids had parents who either divorced or should have, brothers and sisters with whom they often fought, sometimes pretty roughly. There was nothing going on in our house that was worse, or even half as bad as, some other families I know of.

That's part of the disconnect here, Lauderdale. You are thoroughly invested in the idea that all those kids who turned up on front row were in dire, dire straits and in need of rescue. That simply isn't true. Most of us were just pretty typical families who's parents became convinced of your view of things. The vast majority of people who grew up in those days did not, as you predicted, land up deadinsaneorinjail. They just... grew up. And, I think, probably better off w/o the cult baggage.

Speaking strictly for myself, I was already impressing some people who might well have opened doors for me. I was all about the entrepreneurial spirit. I was an excellent student, too. But I'll never know how any of that might have turned out. While I was locked away, unable to speak for myself, dear old Mom was busy, busy, busy in her recruiting efforts telling everybody I ever knew and all their parents about how I was a druggie in residential treatment. It was a big blow to me when I got back to my home town. Everyone I looked up or ran into, the fist thing they'd ask me was "how are you doing w/ your drug problem?"

Even my elderly old cousin was obviously frightened of me when I went to visit her. Ironically, that loser who I had hooked up w/ early on wound up working as the handyman in her apartment complex. And he used to bring our daughter along quite often. So she, at least, got to have a relationship w/ Cousin K., even though neither one knew who the other was.

My mom was in and out of nuthouses when I was a kid.  She'll be 80 this year more sane than ever.  I don't get it.  She just needed a few bucks in her pocket to make her feel right about herself and believe me it really made the difference somehow.

You mean, she didn't need the Seed to get through her midlife crisis? Imagine that!

Normal what the fu-- is that?  

I guess I have it as normal as ever now and like you I would not trade a minute of it for what I have now.  So maybe that is the Middle ground.

Exactly!

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones

[Thom]

On 2005-10-06 11:25:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Unknown to my dear brother at the time, Dad continued to come around the house to visit me and my sister on his lunch hour almost every day. And he continued to pay child support, as well as soliciting funds and other donations for the Seed. See, while he wouldn't accept disrespect or belittlement from you turkeys, he completely bought into your fear-mongering over the "counterculture". In fact, I'd say he may have been even more strident about it.



I can't explain the descrepency. But Thom remembers Dad as having been absent for a long time. I remember the shack in the tomato field where I-95 now meets, I think, old Copans. I remember the 3 salvaged refrigerators in it, each stocked w/ a different brand of beer for his friends. And I remember the 6'+ rattle snake that he killed and skinned and hung from the old Slurpee truck he used to drive around town. I could go on and on w/ fond (and some not so fond) memories of my dad's continued involvement in us kids' lives. He pretty much involved himself just about as much as the situation would allow. "

Ginger, That was a very informative post, thanks! I did not know Dad came around at lunch time. I'm glad you had that time with him. When I made mention before of my perceived lack of Dad I wasn't really complaining. I figure he couldn't handle being around Mom for various reasons. It probably had an adverse impact on me, but none that I was aware of at the time.

When I could drive, (legally) I had lots of good times with him. We were drinkin'- shootin' buddies for a while. I used to go over to Fobes' house and put away a few cold ones with them. They were funny drunk! I learned a lot about re-loading and firearms from him. It was our hobby together. I wasn't a gun nut, nor am I anti-gun, but I joined him where he was on that one.

One time, he, his Dad, Jim and I went fishing at locksahatchie. The exciting part of that trip was when the motor fell off. Dad cussed a lot, jumped in and a few seconds later had it to the surface, hopped back in the boat, cussed a lot, and cranked it up. I don't remember if we caught anything, but what I will never forget was what a big moment for Dad that must have been, lazy motor excepting, to have 3 generations together in an attempt at enjoying a 'normal' activity. An odd coincidence here was that Sandi's parents ran the restaurant / tackle store out there at about that time. We didn't meet til probably 6-7 years later.

There were uncomfortable moments too. Sometimes I would find him at that little redneck bar on Atlantic pretty toasted, and help him home. It felt strange to be in the role of care taker at 17 or so, but it was rare.

The shack, (The Diamond Club) was located just south of Atlantic (in view of it, at the time, now a bunch of apartments on the canal between) a few blocks west of Dixie. The Diamond Club, as it was previously known, had been a secret card room for city officials, Police Chief for one, and local business men. Not sure of the time frame, likely 40's, 50's 60's.

I think he shot that rattle snake in the shack, but I may be confusing that with a big rat he shot there.

The Slurpee truck was actually a retired mail truck. At one point, after he was fired from the PO, he painted "U.S.Mell" on the side. He would drive by the postmonster's office and wave (single digit).

A true character, that Mac!

Thanks again for filling in some blanks for me. :smile:

BTW, Ginger and Lauderdale, Normal is asettin' on a washing machine and/or dryer. (You couldn't prove that by me, I don't recall ever settin' on either one)

what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about? [ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-10-06 16:45 ]

[Anonymous]

Ginger, just dropping a brief comment here, i think echoing what Walter said. your comments a few pages back, two long posts, were very well written and explained things quite well. the hardest thing i think is to write a balanced post to such a hard emotional issue.

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:

 I don't remember if we caught anything, but what I will never forget was what a big moment for Dad that must have been, lazy motor excepting, to have 3 generations together in an attempt at enjoying a 'normal' activity.

Would it really have been normal w/o a little cussing? I bet that meant a whole lot to him, though; on the order of checking off a life's goal. According to Babe, Grandpa was always promising to take Dad fishing then never showing up.

I think he shot that rattle snake in the shack, but I may be confusing that with a big rat he shot there.

As I remember, the snake had been out in the field and died rather galantly at the tender mercies of a sharp ho. (have fun w/ that!)

The Slurpee truck was actually a retired mail truck. At one point, after he was fired from the PO, he painted "U.S.Mell" on the side. He would drive by the postmonster's office and wave (single digit).



A true character, that Mac!



Thanks again for filling in some blanks for me. :smile: "

 :rofl: In Deed! And remember, Peanuts cause cancer! And thanks for being nice to me.

Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.  
-- Old Farmer's Almanac

[Antigen]

Thanks, Anon!

Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves

--Ronald Reagan

[Thom]

On 2005-10-06 16:45:00, Antigen wrote:


In Deed! And remember, Peanuts cause cancer! And thanks for being nice to me. "

You are most welcome. I think the tone of those two long posts of yours Walter referred to, and some recent comments directed at me here lately have given me cause to reflect on my treatment of you and 'the others' Sometimes I forget I'm a well adjusted middle aged adult.  :tup:

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:

what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about?

Oh, I just put Betty Sembler's deposition online. There was already some conversation about it. Evidently, someone doesn't want it read or discussed. So they keep filling that topic and some others in that forum w/ code that makes it unreadable.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein

[Thom]

On 2005-10-06 17:21:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-10-06 16:27:00, Thom wrote:


what is 'Screw that little dweeb and his lame attempts at censorship. You can read the damned thing right here:' about?

Oh, I just put Betty Sembler's deposition online. There was already some conversation about it. Evidently, someone doesn't want it read or discussed. So they keep filling that topic and some others in that forum w/ code that makes it unreadable."

Thanks, they should have their fingers hacked off.