I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m

[marshall]

Thanks for that link, chris. My sister-in-law has been a heavy pot smoker for decades and has been on prescription anti-depressants for the past 5 or 6 years. I've been telling her for years that the two are antagonistic (re serotonin levels) and urged her to quit or at least cut down on the pot to see if she still needed the anti-depressants. I'm printing that article for her.

[GregFL]

On 2005-09-27 12:59:00, cleveland wrote:

"Greg,



AA, Synanon ("Sinners Anonymous") and The Seed all were derived from the Oxford Group movement. The goal of the Oxford Group members was to live like the original members of the christian church - so things like purity, group confession, moral inventories, 'carrying this message to all those we can help,' slogans, etc. were all derived from this group. The Agent Orange site has a ton of information and it was an eye opener for me how much of the original impulse for all of these groups had their origins in the 1920s and 30s!



Walter"

Yes Walter, but for all the commonality of origen in the synanon and AA, the synanon SEEMS to be the originator of the "Come down on you" rap and many other techniques used at the seed.  One cannot deny the origins of the seed lay in AA or that also the origins of the synanon come from there as well, but what I am saying is where do the specific synanon style (not AA) treatment modalities used at the seed come from? How did they find their way to the seed?  This is the part that remains a mystery. Art Barker said several years ago to a reporter after denying any connection to the synanon that people just started showing up and bringing ideas with them. Who was he alluding to?

While we are on the subject of the synanon, the synanon became a rather bizzare head shaving,  dancing, tambourene beating cult that put rattlesnakes in their "enemies" mailboxes and many other way off the wall things.

I spent some time on their website several years ago researching weather Art Barker was ever there (very likely not).  Contained within their website were people almost identical to the Staffers and seed defenders we have here, glossing over all the negatives and the people that dared to critize and instead proclaimed how it had "Saved" and "helped" people.

[GregFL]

On 2005-09-28 19:49:00, Thom wrote:

"

On 2005-09-27 06:49:00, GregFL wrote:


"Honorary doctorate in what?





According to the press and in contrary to your spin on it,  in 1973 the place he got his "diploma" from was shut down BY THE STATE in 1972.





Maybe his "diploma" and his "doctorate" are two different things, but I wouldn't wrap fish in either.





Again, what was his "doctorate" in, and how did he accomplish getting it?





"

I took a course in Commercial Art at The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale in either '74 or '75. but, hey! if it was in 'The Press' that they were shut down, maybe I just dreamt it. :em: "

Good one Thom!  I guess it doesn't really matter that that isn't where Art got his supposed degree tho, does it..as long as you are able to throw a little water on the fire.

[Thom]

I was responding to the question based on the information in this post:

On 2005-09-27 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In 1973 Fort Lauderdale College, an accredited state institution, purchased The Art Institute, changed its name to The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale.

(AiFL) degree and diploma programs are licensed by means of accreditation through the Florida State Department of Education, Commission for Independent Education ( 2650 Apalachee Parkway, Suite A, Tallahassee, FL 32301; 850-245-3200; toll-free 888-224-6684).

AiFL is accredited by the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS) (750 First Street, N.E., Suite 980, Washington, DC 20002-4241; 202-336-6780), a national accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education, to award Bachelor of Science and Associate of Science degrees, as well as diplomas.

The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale is approved for the training of veterans and eligible veterans? dependents and is authorized under federal law to enroll non-immigrant alien students.

It is from here that Art Barker received his honorary doctorate. He made no claims to have any formal education, nor did he ever refer to this degree as anything more than honorific.

"

[GregFL]

Lets get to the bottom of this.

The Art Institute of Ft Lauderdale never awarded Art Barker any degree that I know of, honorary or otherwise.

This institution  has had a PHYSICAL LOCATION since 1968 but only offered "diploma" courses in Commercial Art, Interior Design, and Fashion Illustration in its early years.

The "Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale" wasn't  even awarded a license as a vocational school until 1975, YEARS after Art's supposed "DOCTORATE" and long after the mysterious "art institute" shut its doors.


The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale wasn't even accredited to offer a TWO YEAR program until 1979. some 7 years after the infamous "doctorate" degree was obtained by one Art barker..

The Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale BOUGHT the name and files of the DEFUNCT "Art Institute", reportedly shut down by the state of florida for being a diploma mill in 1973, and likely just to obtain the name because after all, they were at the time primarily an  ART SCHOOL. This was 6 YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE ACCREDITED TO EVEN OFFER A TWO YEAR DEGREE never mind a "Doctorate".

It wasn't until 25 YEARS LATER that the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale was accredited to offer a BACHELOR PROGRAM.

The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale is a respected Vocational local institution, an alternative to people that cannot attend a university.  There are similar colleges thruout the US that serve a need and purpose for their communities.  As I write this THEY STILL, 33 YEARS LATER, DO NOT OFFER DOCTORATE DEGREES, HONORARY OR OTHERWISE. THEY NEVER HAVE AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.

They were not even accredited until 2000 in spite of the misleading writing by "anon" above. They now serve as a community type vocational school offering bachelor level degrees for things such as broadcasting, fashion merchandising, interior design  and Culinary arts.

Anyone here care to give some background on the real institution that awarded Art his "doctorate" the defunct "ART INSTITUTE", not affiliated in any means or manner with the "Art institute of Ft Lauderdale" in 1972 when Art was awarded his "doctorate"?  On whose authority were they awarding doctorate degrees?  With what accredidation? In what field is Art's "doctorate"? What were the circumstances surrounding his honorary "doctorate".

 This time when responding, please  try to use the first and most twisted rule .


Just when are you post program seedlings gonna stop making excuses for one another?

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-28 19:22:00, ChrisL wrote:

"Ginger -

I thought this other article on the same site was very interesting too...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2498493.stm



Still alive & kicking in LA

via the Gulf Coast"

I think that one's going to turn out to be bunk just like the "brain on drugs" cat scan photo ads.

There may be a very slight statistical relationship between cannabis use and mental illness. But the study you reference doesn't show causation, just correlation. In other words, it doesn't show that cannabis use cuases mental illness. It shows that people w/ mental illness may be more inclined to smoke than others. Which makes sense, since one of the effects of cannabis is euphorea for most people (paranoia, sometimes accute paranoia for others)

Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Anonymous]

ask any heroin addict what the first illegal drug used was; pot doesn't cause anyone to stick a needle in their arm, but here's something to put your investigative skills at, how many heroin addicts wouldn't have been heroin addicts without pot
i'll give you a hint not many

[marshall]

According to current official thinking, it isn't just pot that leads to heroin and cocaine abuse. Now they are asserting that tobacco and beer lead to heroin too!  :eek: If cigarettes lead to hard drugs, all of us on the program in the 70's should be addicts by now courtesy of Art and the Seed. Most junkies smoked pot before they began using heroin therefore pot leads to heroin addiction. Sounds logical, right? Most junkies also smoked cigarettes before they began using heroin therefore tobacco use leads to heroin addiction....right?  :: The gateway theory of drug abuse, though widely embraced by current drug policy makers, has precious little support from any scientific studies and many studies specifically refute it.

"The National Drug Control Strategy for 1997 unveiled by U.S. drug czar Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey (Office of National Drug Control Policy, 1997) adopts a "zero-tolerance" policy toward youthful alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana use. The strategy regards all of these as "gateway behaviors" leading to serious drug abuse. In support of this contention, the Strategy cites a report by the Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA, 1994) entitled Cigarettes, Alcohol, Marijuana: Gateways to Illicit Drug Use. The CASA report has been widely influential, in part because CASA president Joseph A. Califano, Jr., is a former Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Califano and CASA relied on data from a 1991 government survey to show that both adolescents and adults who have used cigarettes, alcohol, and marijuana are hundreds of times more likely to use cocaine than those who have never used any of the three substances. Califano's conclusion: The most critical step in stamping out dangerous drug abuse is to prevent young people from embarking on the road to perdition through the gateway of smoking, drinking, or using marijuana."

[Antigen]

Here's a fairly recent study on the medical attributes of marijuana:
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/marimed/

This study was commissioned by the ONDCP under Barry McCaffrey (aka General McCzar), who immediately round-filed it as it didn't support their agenda.

Though the primary focus of the study was just the medical efficacy, it also debunks the gateway myth. It also recomends that further study be done into the medical uses of this herb and that, until that can be done, certain patients who can benefit from it and who are not having such good luck w/ the more dangerous prescription drugs should be given access to the crude form immediately. That was in `96.

Much earlier in this tragedy, Nixon put together a commission to study marijuana. He chose Republican governor Ray Shaffer to head his commission. I suppose he mistook him for one of his faithful extra chromozome republicans. Well, the Shaffer report thorougly debunks the very idea of marijuana as a major problem. This report was also round-filed. And it's interesting to note that it came out 2 years after Art set up shop to treat pot smoking teenagers for their non-existant progressive, terminal, incurable diseas.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lib ... ncmenu.htm

The only thing I know of that can lead to opiate addiction is regular use of opiates by people who, for reasons as yet not clearly understood, are prone to opiate addiction.

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President

[Anonymous]

nice try Marshall but cigarettes and alcohol were peripherals to the subculture, pot wasn't, and it was the trappings of the subculture, not just the drug that led to the hard stuff

[Antigen]

Thank you! Finally, you admit this wasn't a drug rehab, but a culture rehab.

And exactly what was the subculture we were all supposed to be trying to save the word from? Was Raymond Shaffer a part of that subculture? How about the Consumer's Union? Are they a part of this vast left wing conspiracy to subvert the youth of a nation too?

When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
Anonymity Anonymous

[marshall]

Nice try Marshall? I'm not the one asserting this ridiculous contention (that cigarettes or alcohol lead to heroin). It was from Gen McCaffrey, drug czar, so take it up with him. I just pasted the article:

"The National Drug Control Strategy for 1997 unveiled by U.S. drug czar Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey (Office of National Drug Control Policy, 1997) adopts a "zero-tolerance" policy toward youthful alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana use. The strategy regards all of these as "gateway behaviors" leading to serious drug abuse."

I think it's absurd to assert that cigarettes lead to heroin. I also think it's absurd that pot leads to heroin, so I disagree with both you and the general. I'm not advocating marijuana use by any means. I personally have no use for it. As I've mentioned, I've smoked it exactly once in 30 years. I have no use for cigarettes either but will defend any adult's right to kill themselves via tobacco if they so choose.

BTW, I agree with Ginger that the whole 'subculture' thing is crap and one area where the seed really went whacko...leading to the silliness of attacking rock music as 'druggie music', certain styles of clothes, haircuts, slang, etc. As stupid as the 'culture wars' going on now. Reminds me of the religious right's tirades against secular humanism. Sorry, I have no use for the Seed's brand of culture or subculture either. BTW, listening to Sinatra will ultimately lead you to join the mafia and listening to Dean Martin will make you a drunk too.

[Napolean Bonafart]

I was smoking cigarettes at 10 dropped acid at 11. Smoked pot at 12 and did coke at 19. Did diadid and morphine through a hospital stay. Real drugs. Pot doesn't lead to heroin.

Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.

--Plato

[GregFL]

And listening to Jo-Lo will make your butt grow...

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Gawd, 30 years later, people still spouting the gateway theory?  Still fighting the "subculture"?

When will the madness end?

[GregFL]

On 2005-09-29 04:47:00, GregFL wrote:

"Lets get to the bottom of this.



The Art Institute of Ft Lauderdale never awarded Art Barker any degree that I know of, honorary or otherwise.



This institution  has had a PHYSICAL LOCATION since 1968 but only offered "diploma" courses in Commercial Art, Interior Design, and Fashion Illustration in its early years.



The "Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale" wasn't  even awarded a license as a vocational school until 1975, YEARS after Art's supposed "DOCTORATE" and long after the mysterious "art institute" shut its doors.





The Art institute of Florida wasn't even accredited to offer a TWO YEAR program until 1979. some 7 years after the infamous "doctorate" degree was obtained by one Art barker..



The Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale BOUGHT the name and files of the DEFUNCT "Art Institute", reportedly shut down by the state of florida for being a diploma mill in 1973, and likely just to obtain the name because after all, they were at the time primarily an  ART SCHOOL. This was 6 YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE ACCREDITED TO EVEN OFFER A TWO YEAR DEGREE never mind a "Doctorate".



It wasn't until 25 YEARS LATER that the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale was accredited to offer a BACHELOR PROGRAM.



The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale is a respected Vocational local institution, an alternative to people that cannot attend a university.  There are similar colleges thruout the US that serve a need and purpose for their communities.  As I write this THEY STILL, 33 YEARS LATER, DO NOT OFFER DOCTORATE DEGREES, HONORARY OR OTHERWISE. THEY NEVER HAVE AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.



They were not even accredited until 2000 in spite of the misleading writing by "anon" above. They now serve as a community type vocational school offering bachelor level degrees for things such as broadcasting, fashion merchandising, interior design  and Culinary arts.



Anyone here care to give some background on the real institution that awarded Art his "doctorate" the defunct "ART INSTITUTE", not affiliated in any means or manner with the "Art institute of Ft Lauderdale" in 1972 when Art was awarded his "doctorate"?  On whose authority were they awarding doctorate degrees?  With what accredidation? In what field is Art's "doctorate"? What were the circumstances surrounding his honorary "doctorate".



 This time when responding, please  try to use the first and most twisted rule .





Just when are you post program seedlings gonna stop making excuses for one another?



"

Still no response?  The first Anon post suggested things that were simply just not true.. and now that I have posted the actual facts above...the defenders of the Doctorate have dried up.

How about an admission that something about the doctorate is a little fishy?

Comn, you can do it! Use that first and most pissed upon rule!!!!



 :grin:  :grin:  :grin: