Carlbrook

[Troll Control]

On 2005-09-17 16:15:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

" :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-22 18:43:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


Now, for those who read this all the way down, sorry Im so long winded, but I had a lot of points to make. I speak of facts, they speak of feelings and shun criticial thought and facts! I say theyre acting like a cult and they go and start ad-hominem attacks on me because I have a stressful personal life and do their damnest to act like one.

Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance in America is lighting a fire underneath his own home.
--Harold E. Stassen, 1947

"

You say you speak of facts.  Exactly what facts are those?  You have said you have not experienced these things first-hand - either as a parent or a child.  So what "facts" do you refer to?

You seem very willing to accept anything bad that anyone has to say about these programs - and extremely quick to dismiss those that say these programs have helped them as being brainwashed.  

You have refered to "false allegations" that have screwed up your family.  But if someone talks about "false allegations" of abuse by these programs, you attack. (Perhaps I am wrong, but judging by some of the references you have made in the past, it sounds like abuse allegations you refer to.  If so, how can you be so willing to accept the claims of abuse from strangers on the internet, but dismiss them in real life?) There is the conflict - you seem to blame "false allegations" for a lot of your misery, yet you refuse to consider the fact that someone would make "false allegations" against these programs.

[Further note - I am NOT saying that claims of abuse in these programs are false.  I am simply pointing out what appears to be a contradiction that would degrade one's credibility]

Maybe that is why people may question you, in what you perceive as an attack.  Maybe it is really more an attempt to clarify the validity and credibility of your statements in light of what appears to be a contradiction, not to mention major tunnel-vision.

Just some thoughts and observations, hopefully that you will consider and not just dismiss in a rage.

[Nihilanthic]

Wow way to reply from August 22nd! YOU WIN!

Ok, a few things here...
My family was accused, and they ASSUMED it was true, instead of investigate, and it fucked us over.

Its about INVESTIGATING AND FINDING OUT, RETARD! :flame:

People ASSUME the assumptions against the programs are false, and dont investigate. BS. Thats another case of INVESTIGATE AND FIND OUT INSTEAD OF ASSUME! Its not about 'accusations are bad'. Criticism and critical thought is a good thing, bucko.

Also, my willingness to accept something is inversely proprotional to how much it has to do with feelings instead of FACTS and INFO. Im also going to categorically dismiss anything to do with the synannite/lifespring style seminars/workshops or their clones, period, because its just that, a damned LGA. LGAs are LGAs, not therapy or growing.

BTW professionals - not emotionally weak and manipulated terrified parents and dominated children - have investigated how LGAs work. Its a pathological effect from the mind games, stress, humiliation, and the 'breakdown' from hours and hours of that bullshit that you feel. Its not some spiritual thing or an epiphany, its eurphoria from a release of brain chemicals from sustained stress.

This... contradiction is not. You dont seem to grasp my point: I WANT IT INVESTIGATED INSTEAD OF ASSUMED IN BOTH CASES. K?

Oh and uh finally... as this thread went on, the carlbrookies did exactly what I said the program does - 'emotional growth' bullshit! They LOOKED FOR MY PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL to CONFRONT ME about the past bullshit and saying that because I have had hard times in my life and havent been to a workshop you can't trust anything I say.

WTF?

Oh and uh.... FACTS like what a LGA is or FACTS that all they do is confront and bring up personal bullshit in the LGAs instead of actual therapy are the facts I speak of. The FACTS of how they acted in the thread. Oh and uh P.S. I didnt personally figure out all of math and science, but hey, I can know math without experiencing it!

Science can be demonstrated... and well lookie here, they acted just like I accused them of. Empirical evidence?

Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-17 19:08:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Wow way to reply from August 22nd! YOU WIN!



Ok, a few things here...

My family was accused, and they ASSUMED it was true, instead of investigate, and it fucked us over.



Its about INVESTIGATING AND FINDING OUT, RETARD! :flame:



People ASSUME the assumptions against the programs are false, and dont investigate. BS. Thats another case of INVESTIGATE AND FIND OUT INSTEAD OF ASSUME! Its not about 'accusations are bad'. Criticism and critical thought is a good thing, bucko.



Also, my willingness to accept something is inversely proprotional to how much it has to do with feelings instead of FACTS and INFO. Im also going to categorically dismiss anything to do with the synannite/lifespring style seminars/workshops or their clones, period, because its just that, a damned LGA. LGAs are LGAs, not therapy or growing.



BTW professionals - not emotionally weak and manipulated terrified parents and dominated children - have investigated how LGAs work. Its a pathological effect from the mind games, stress, humiliation, and the 'breakdown' from hours and hours of that bullshit that you feel. Its not some spiritual thing or an epiphany, its eurphoria from a release of brain chemicals from sustained stress.



This... contradiction is not. You dont seem to grasp my point: I WANT IT INVESTIGATED INSTEAD OF ASSUMED IN BOTH CASES. K?



Oh and uh finally... as this thread went on, the carlbrookies did exactly what I said the program does - 'emotional growth' bullshit! They LOOKED FOR MY PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL to CONFRONT ME about the past bullshit and saying that because I have had hard times in my life and havent been to a workshop you can't trust anything I say.



WTF?



Oh and uh.... FACTS like what a LGA is or FACTS that all they do is confront and bring up personal bullshit in the LGAs instead of actual therapy are the facts I speak of. The FACTS of how they acted in the thread. Oh and uh P.S. I didnt personally figure out all of math and science, but hey, I can know math without experiencing it!



Science can be demonstrated... and well lookie here, they acted just like I accused them of. Empirical evidence?

Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir

"

Actually, I'd say Niles knows what he speaks of, when talking about LGAT (large group awareness training) seminars.

Check out this study ...

"This paper presents an overview of a Lifespring Basic Training workshop from a psychoanalytic perspective. Basing our conclusions on a participant-observation study, we argue that the impact of the training was essentially pathological. First, in the early period of the training, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework of the training was based upon regressive modes of reasoning Third, the structure and content of the training tended to stimulate early narcissistic conflicts, and defenses, which accounted for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants."

Read more here:

PATHOLOGY AS PERSONAL GROWTH

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm

[Anonymous]

He may or he may not - but he doesn't help to further his cause by name calling.  I can assure you I am not a "RETARD" and I fail to see anything in my post that would have prompted such an accusation.  

It is sad because he may know what he is talking about, but he certainly loses credibility by such childish, uncalled for attacks.

And Nihilanthic - again, I was offering a perspective for you to consider, maybe an insight into why people may question you.  It would certainly appear that you don't care to consider how you may be perceived.  It is a shame, because if you truly want to be effective, it IS necessary to understand how your words, attitude and accusations affect how other perceive the message you are giving.

Oh - and so far as investigating - - without further facts, I would find it hard to believe that abuse accusations weren't investigated.  If they weren't investigated, how was your family even affected?  Or maybe you just didn't like the conclusion of the investigation........Again, seems to be a contradiction.

[Anonymous]

Nihil- your post isn't written clearly enough to be comprehensible.  Maybe Overlordd should help you clean it up a little.

[Nihilanthic]

Oy, guess M.C. NILES GOTTA BREAK IT DOWWNNNNN for ya for you to make sense of what I say, huh. Well, here we go.

On 2005-09-17 19:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"He may or he may not - but he doesn't help to further his cause by name calling.  I can assure you I am not a "RETARD" and I fail to see anything in my post that would have prompted such an accusation.  

The RETAAAARD wasnt really meant at you, just that a lot of heartache and bullshit could be avoided and prevented (and cleaned up) if people would thuroughly investigate things and not assume one way or the other.

It is sad because he may know what he is talking about, but he certainly loses credibility by such childish, uncalled for attacks.

Im sorry ::boohoo::

And Nihilanthic - again, I was offering a perspective for you to consider, maybe an insight into why people may question you.  It would certainly appear that you don't care to consider how you may be perceived.  It is a shame, because if you truly want to be effective, it IS necessary to understand how your words, attitude and accusations affect how other perceive the message you are giving.

Thanks for the public speaking 101 :silly: But in all honesty in this thread I really dont care. I deal with stubborn fucks all the time who would rather be right than correct (which would mean admitting they were wrong) and will let nothing more than stubbornness keep a child in a program, or make them stand by whatever decision they've made.

Dealing with that shit makes me a little fed up and pissy, but my mood when I was typing my previous post was actaully very non serious if you could believe that. But see, my 'message' is the truth.

I suppose I should soften my tones and pretend the people who are here, instead of locked in a program are the fuckin' victims and let them play the victim card (AGAIN! :roll: ) and be CONCILATORY and be soo fucking sorry that they were tricked into sending their kids away, and they might listen more... if I can not bang my head against my keyboard in the process.

Actually, yeah, I do have to pander to those poor poor sensitive parents who might be too angry or shameful to admit theyre wrong and save their kid. I'll keep that in mind!

Oh - and so far as investigating - - without further facts, I would find it hard to believe that abuse accusations weren't investigated.  If they weren't investigated, how was your family even affected?  Or maybe you just didn't like the conclusion of the investigation........Again, seems to be a contradiction.

Well, arent you fucking brilliant. Let me remind you that everything you know about that is what I told you - whereas the programs have countless witnesses or personally abused victims, theres been ton of publicity and investigation already.

Im sure you already know that many times the police will just offhand reject accusations against the programs and the responsible orginizations/authorities will simply disregard or drop it, right? That doesnt happen EVERY time, but it does.

Now, back to MY personal shit... the cops simply believed it was true, and didnt investigate. The DA took it to court with the accusation itself as the only evidence. The judge saw how the DA had... my dad, stepmom, and my two sisters, and the defence had a pile of psychologists, the WHOLE FAIMLY except those on the prosecution's side, including myself, who was offhandedly accused of having been molested... by my stepmom. (But obviously nobody molested me... and I love how the cops ignored that part!)

The Judge said "Their MOM is on the defence? How did you let it get this far??" to the DA who basically... didnt give a shit! The Judge cant MAKE him drop it, but the Judge seemed to think if my sisters were put on the stand it would hurt them - and clearly did not seem to think my stepdad did jack shit because he would have let the trial continue if he did. So, he yells at the DA to drop it. DA goes (what amounts to) "Nuh-uh". So then he yells at the accused, and the defence lawyer goes "he didnt DO anything!".

So, the Judge drags the defence and DA off, and they come back and to make 'everyone happy' (instead of drop it like it should have been) the plea bargain was.... two counts of assault on a female. Two misdemeanors, and an alford plea at that. Not BATTERY, just assault.

No Judge thinking that he was a child molestor would have let that go through, buddy. The Prosecutor fucked up royally and the Judge apparently doesnt have the power to just throw shit out in NC. But whatever. BTW when a probation officer tried to make him admit built and go through 'sex offender treatment' (which is stepcraft... oy) the Judge told her "NO, I said NO, I said he didnt have to do it!". So yeah draw your own conclusions - he could have easily made him!

In BOTH cases, if things were investigated and followed through accordingly, there'd be justice in both cases, less bullshit, and less heartache... and I wouldnt be here talking to you now!  

It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ORZ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Louis Armstrong

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-09-18 18:54 ]

[Anonymous]

Are you Ben's Mom, or just another parent who knows of Karen?
"

Who is Ben?

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-18 18:47:00, Nihilanthic wrote:



Well, arent you fucking brilliant. Let me remind you that everything you know about that is what I told you - whereas the programs have countless witnesses or personally abused victims, theres been ton of publicity and investigation already.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ORZ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Louis Armstrong

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-09-18 18:54 ]"

Why yes, some people do think I'm rather brilliant! :smile:

I stumbled upon this topic and was looking into it more.  It is obvious that you feel passionately about this subject and would like to effect real change.  As such, I would hope you would be open and interested in learning how you are perceived in order to become more effective.

If you cannot express yourself without the attacks, name-calling, and sarcastic denigration, you will be far less effective.  People will dismiss you and what you say.

If you want to expound on the virtues of pork, it is easy to do so at a Pork Lover's convention.  They are all on your side.  But say someone wonders in that isn't quite sure - they have heard some things about pork, but don't know what to believe.

They come in and ask questions and request information about the your qualifications to make such remarks about pork - instead of just blindly accepting what they hear.  You respond by slamming them, calling them contemptable names and lashing out.  They leave thinking that those Pork Lovers are a bunch on fanatical, irrational zealots.

Meanwhile, all your buddies in the Pork Lovers convention are slapping you on the back, giving you high fives.  You feel quite self-righteous.

But you have hurt your cause.  Sure, the Pork Lovers think you are great; they are on your side.  They were ALREADY on your side, so you have gain nothing.  But you have lost what may have been a valuable ally.

Simplistic and obvious I'm sure - but you seem to have missed that.  Perhaps you are just too blinded with self-righteous indignation at this point.  Perhaps you lack the maturity at this point in your life.  (and that is not meant as an insult or a slam)

Now - so far as your personal situation.  

You say to draw my own conclusions.  Ok, based on what you have said, I would conclude that you either have not been given all the information, that you have been given misinformation, or you are only providing bits of information to support your stand.  And that is my point - if you don't give clear, accurate and complete information in a rational, mature manner, people will draw their own conclusions.  And it probably won't be the ones you want.

Judges may not have the power to throw cases out, but a defense attorney can certainly file a motion to dismiss.  If the charges were so bogus and the case was so heavily slanted in favor of the defense, if the judge would have thrown out the charges, etc etc etc - - -why didn't the defense file a motion to dismiss?

Even so, judges impose the sentence.  If the judge was so enraged and the allegations so egregious, why would the judge have imposed a sentence that obviously created such a hardship for your family?

Again, if things were as you paint them - why wouldn't the accuse INSIST on a jury trial?  Surely he would have been vindicated and his name cleared.  Why would he allow his family to suffer as a result of these charges?

It just doesn't add up - and that is just a cursory analysis.  I'm sure more inconsistencies and flaws would surface upon further analysis and/or information.

The response to this post, if there is one, will probably be predictable.  I am probably wasting my time here.  But maybe it will at least prompt you to examine things a little more analytically and less emotionally.  Maybe at some point, you will look back and find at least some truth in what I have said.

I wish you peace in the future, and success in your journey.

[Nihilanthic]

The judge basically said if we insisted on a trial hed do everything he could to keep my sisters off the stand.

So, youre in a situation where... theres only the accusation itself, and you cant even question the accusers. Our lawyer told us that in that case the trial would be a crapshoot - some juries might just believe becuase its a kid saying it happened, AND becuase you cant question you cant show how their stories changed every time, etc, even though it was on the police documents.

And, the accused was duped into thinking this would help my sisters and my mom get back together. HAH.

But yeah, when a judge is saying you cant face the accusers and that he yelled at everyone to "WORK SOMETHING OUT!!!", its called coersion...

P.S. What does this have to do with me? And all this other shit? Investigation would have fixed my problem AND the problems with the programs abuse.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.  
-- E. Grebenik

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-19 16:01:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

P.S. What does this have to do with me? And all this other shit? Investigation would have fixed my problem AND the problems with the programs abuse.

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.  
-- E. Grebenik

"

It probably has a lot to do with you, who you are, etc.  However, that was just being used as an example.

When I read this response, I saw information, it didn't attack, name call, etc.  It was a reasonable, calm explanation.

I can tell you - my response to that post was MUCH different than the response before.  This one gives me the impression of someone who is providing more rational, meaningful information - much more powerful and persuasive. The prior one would be dismissed as being a diatribe by a hothead with an ax to grind.

I hope you find peace in your life.  Good luck in your efforts.

[Truth]

Even though I'm a parent that thinks Carlbrook helped her son to a certain extent,  I have mixed feelings about the program and to this day wonder about efficacy of the therapy sessions.  Did someone here call it Large Group Awareness? I'll have to check into that. I did not hear this mentioned by anyone at Carlbrook nor by our Educational Consultant. I told our son later, that one of the reasons it is so important to maintain self control is that when you lose control and things become somewhat of an emergency situation and you give part of your control to other people. This is a very uncomfortable thing to do. A parent can do their very best in terms of research and still fall
short in trying to find a good match for their child. I have posted on your website to try to help parents when they do their own research and are trying to make the difficult decision with reference to placing a child. In my opinion, these programs do provide a service. There are some good points to Carlbrook, but like I have mentioned before, there were things about the program that were of concern. Of note was that they did not seem to have a strong therapeutic component. Hopefully, they have made some improvements in this realm. If I were a parent looking at this school for my child, this is the area that I would check into very carefully. I would also double check on my child as often as possible. For us, the entire Carlbrook experience ended up a difficult one.
p.s. Our son never graduated from Carlbrook, but just a few months later was doing beautifully with the help of a local therapist. I believe there are certain people in the program that concern him. [ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-19 17:52 ]

[Nihilanthic]

Id definitely call it a BIG red flag that they didnt tell you the real core component of the 'therapy' at  carlbrook! What else did they say it was?

Another thing I would call into question about how they say "youre scared and helpless, and its uncomfortable to give up control to someone else, but you should anyway" which is a roundabout way of saying "you should give up control to us". Why is culturing and nurturing vulnerability part of THERAPY, exactly?

Not only that but a lot of parents seem to really have no clue what goes on in programs or even how they're supposed to work! I created a thread a while ago centered about WWASPS programs but I later expanded to all programs, titled "How about some damn ANSWERS."

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9

Its 40 pages long, and basically after trying for  hundreds of posts to get out how they work and what they do, they said... "its the seminars". Thats it. It actually caused one woman, Chi3, to remove her child from the WWASPS program Carolina Springs Academy! :grin:

When they spoke of the 'workshops' in Carlbrook as being the source of the growth/therapy/whatever it struck me as a point of contention. Seminars/workshops/propheets, etc, are all just adaptations of the Synannon/Lifespring model of confrontational, "dig up your issues" (and your emotions!) type of 'experiential' seminar/workshop/whatever.

In a nutshell its about turning off thought and turning on emotions/feelings (and ONLY them) until youre so absorbed in them you lose the ability to think critically and just accept what is told. When the emotional rollercoaster is done, youre left in a euphoric and weak state... so then they dole out affection and have everyone give everyone else affection. Ive heard this described as a "love bomb". Being in a weak state youre 'receptive to suggestion'. Thats a very polite and non-tinfoilhat-ish way to say theyre brainwashing them.

The way they do it besides just directly screwing with emotions (like confronting every child there about why theyre in the program and all the bad things they ever did, playying off of primal fears, and controlling the music/temperature/light levels of the room and not letting them use the bathroom or heat much [the seminars take like 18 hours]) is with processes. These are basically mind-games designed to open you up or... well, freak you out. Like say everyone has to form circles and pick 5 people to say, and yell "I SAVE YOU" to them, and to everyone else yell "DIE!". Or they do trust games, or like "close your eyes and lie on the floor and pretend youre dead in a coffin" or beat on chairs or beat on the floor with towels, etc. And at the end the doling out affection is mostly just hugging everyone.

So yeah. Your issues are dug up and 'addressed' but its basically a vehicle to play with emotions and turn off your mental/intellectual ability and discourage and punish criticism and critial thought. You HAVE to accept what they say and they make it damn hard to not accept it. Thats the only way out of the program... "working the program!".

If you want to read up about how all of this works, Id say go to http://www.isaccorp.org and look up about the "Discovery seminars" or search Fornits for "raps", "seminars", and "propheets".

Some direct links are here:

http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/krbean.pdf
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/resource ... 10.02.html

This isnt direct to carlbrook. But LGAs (large group awareness training) may be called various things but theyre all basically the same sort. Oh and uh.. them saying "I had to experience it" and digging up my PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL and all the bullcrap I went through thats on it and confronting me about it here publically. HELLO? The more I say its all about seminars in the thread the more they reflected it... and they all talk in the same sort of way when they defend the program here.

Dont you find it odd that what is said all sounds like the same person? Either one person cares WAY too much or they all sound the same, which is even MORE freaky.

Its good that your mind is open and that you'd rather be critical and find the truth than cling to what might be a lie to feel better about the decision you made with your son, but its the right thing to do. Just keep looking and keep searching, and you'll see whats going on. It ain't all pretty but... well, its the mess we're all involved in when people are led to believe they need programs to help raise their children.

When we talk to god, it's prayer. When god talks to us, it's schizophrenia.
--Lily Tomlin, American actress

[Anonymous]

I say if the adults want to pay someone to brainwash them, fine.  Just leave the kids out of it.  Their brains are NOT even fully developed.  These LGAT seminars strip participants of their critical thinking skills.  Is that really what parents want for their kids ... to take away their ability to think logically and rationally?  Instill them with the values and beliefs of a bunch of under-educated, materialistic teen helpers? People who are in the business of "engineering" the minds of young children?

God save us all.

[Anonymous]

I think it's fair to say that parents should inquire as to the type of therapy that Carlbrook is using. There does seem to be some brain-wash aspects to the therapy methods they used with our child. There certainly is an abundance of secretism. However, it also seemed like the major themes they were focusing on were good ones. Integrity, honesty and other ones of good value. These programs do seem to help many children. Many of these children are so destructive that they do need a controlled environment to live in. It really takes experienced, well educated leaders to pull off a well balanced program.  I got the impression that Carlbrook has  potential but has some work to do.