Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

I think it sounds like you know what you are doing, Shortbus.  Most of these kids ARE very smart- that is one thing that leads to defiance and total disregard for authority.  You did your job and helped them.

[Antigen]

OMG! Has it occured to you folks that maybe the smart kids are onto something? Maybe they rebel and dissent BECAUSE they're smart enough to see through the bullshit? Do you think that, quite possibly, breaking the smart ones is not the best way to address the conflict? Maybe, just maybe, we should do something about the overwhelming mountains of bullshit we're trying to get these kids to swollow?

God damn!

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
http://lfb.com/?stocknumber=FF7485&code=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger.  That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations.  Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-25 21:53:00, Shortbus wrote:

And programs are no different than jobs or school. If youre the new kid you look to the regulars to show you the ropes -whats ok, whats not ok.

I have never had, and would never accept, a job where I was forbidden to speak freely w/ other new employees. Have you?

The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor

--Anatole France

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger.  That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations.  Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts. "

The simple fact you generalize tens of thousands of teens shows your idiocy. You are gravely uninformed, and obvious unexperienced. Your hate for yourself shows quite clear, however.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 08:39:00, Antigen wrote:

"OMG! Has it occured to you folks that maybe the smart kids are onto something? Maybe they rebel and dissent BECAUSE they're smart enough to see through the bullshit? Do you think that, quite possibly, breaking the smart ones is not the best way to address the conflict? Maybe, just maybe, we should do something about the overwhelming mountains of bullshit we're trying to get these kids to swollow?



God damn!

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
http://lfb.com/?stocknumber=FF7485&code=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson

"

I couldn't agree more. These people applaud themselves for punishing kids for being smart.  :roll: Insanity.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-26 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger.  That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations.  Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts. "

Ya' know, when I first got married, my husband and I used to have to put up w/ a whole lot of bullshit from the grandparents. "Why don't you get a real job like grandpa at HP"? and "You should go back to school, get a degree and a career!" Never mind that career jobs were already a relic of the `50's by then. Dear old gramps just followed orders and punched a clock for 20 years. He never did anything spectacular to earn his cozy retirement. He was just in the right place at the right time for a self rightious near idiot to succeed.

Maybe you haven't noticed all the diploma holding hash slingers? And those are the lucky ones. The fact is that a diploma and $3 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. The kids are right. They're teaching nothing but bullshit in school. Blowing off bullshit is not really a sign of dysfunction in kids. Judging by the sheer numbers of drop outs and chronic truants, I'd say it's more like a spontanious and sustained referendum on the school system.

Are you starting to get the drift? I don't believe for a minute that even a supstantial minority, let alone a mojority of kids in private prisons were stealing cars. The national stats on car theft would show it and they don't.

Finally, I completely understand why you'd want to strong arm your kid to do what you think they should do, regardless of the harm done to the kid in the process. You're a frightened idiot who has no faith in your kid. Pretty simple.

He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
--Author: Sir William Drummond

[Anonymous]

Many of these kids came from excellent private schools where the faculty was strong and the educational opportunities were top-notch.  The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures.  They were stealing cars- maybe the family's car-but taking cars without permission and without licenses in some cases.  They were using  and/or selling alcohol and drugs.  They were violent towards family members.  Gee-why would we lose faith in our kids?
Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some).  Kid is responsible about cars and activities.  Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life.
Ginger- quit with the personal attacks.  It gets old.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-26 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

 The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures.

Confessions obtained under the kind of durress used in these programs are inadmissible in our criminal and civil courts. And the whole world is currently debating whether or not they're really warranted or useful in the war on terrorism. That's because people will say anything you want to hear, true or not, if you make them desperate enough.

The scenario you paint of successfull program graduates is a sad joke. Where are all these successful graduates? Aside from the PTSD symptoms and unusually difficult problems w/ families of origin, what's the real difference between program graduates and their peers who are allowed to just grow up? In my experience, nothing. Oh yeah, they all got to go to prom while we sat in a warehouse crying crocodile tears over false confessions, praying to get out soon.

As for personal attacks, well you reign supreme w/ your rude and unwarranted smears of an entire generation. I know you don't intend it that way, you're used to it, "a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong", as it were. But just go and read over some of the horrible insults against these kids that you toss around so lightly. Shit, at least I'm just commenting, conversing. There is no real threat behind my criticizm. I have neithre the power not the inclination to hire a couple of ex marines to kidnap you from your bed just because I think you're an asshole.

Put the shoe on the other foot for just a day. Walk a mile in my shoes. Till you do, you have no idea what you're talking about, far less any business acting on your delusions.

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

Smearing an entire generation?  I don't think so. I am commenting on what the kids in some of these programs have reported-in groups where I was present. There are many teens who manage to get through the tough years without the need for a residential program. However,there are some that need more therapeutic help and a safer, more controlled environment than can be provided at home.
As for the confessions- my kid never denied what he was doing. It wasn't a matter of confessing- it was pretty clear that he was doing these things.  He will tell you today that he was not mature enough to handle the  independence he insisted on having (and taking) for himself.
Ginger- we are truly sorry that you are bitter and angry and can't let go of your program experience. But that does not give you the right to put everyone else in the same boat.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Many of these kids came from excellent private schools where the faculty was strong and the educational opportunities were top-notch.  The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures.  They were stealing cars- maybe the family's car-but taking cars without permission and without licenses in some cases.  They were using  and/or selling alcohol and drugs.  They were violent towards family members.  Gee-why would we lose faith in our kids?

Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some).  Kid is responsible about cars and activities.  Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life.

Ginger- quit with the personal attacks.  It gets old."

Who are you talking about? Your own kid? You?

Sounds like your spewing BULLSHIT.

'Kid'?

What program do you work for?

[Anonymous]

But that does not give you the right to put everyone else in the same boat.

Talk about calling the kettle black!

What an idiot!


 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-26 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

However,there are some that need more therapeutic help and a safer, more controlled environment than can be provided at home.

Rarely. More often, it's the parent (aka sucker) who needs the program. How in the world do you expect anyone to develop maturity w/o taking on more responsibility than they once did? Can you sit there, straight faced, and try to tell me that you never in your life bit off more than you could chew? What you've done here is 1) stolen the kid's thunder while eliminating valuable learning experiences and 2) put yourself between a bullet and a target. And it won't be long till you're pulling yourself away.

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James

[Nonconformistlaw]

Anon said--------"Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some). Kid is responsible about cars and activities. Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life."---------------

Yes, lets fast forward to the post progam experience :roll: ---excellent idea...kid has no ability to socialize in the real world, outside of the structured program...kid back in high school, now far behind academically because program interferes with education, kid has become more immature as a result of losing so much of his "normal" childhood formative years, kid has nothing to do with family for years....

.....kid now knows better than to respect adults who think they know more than children. Contrary to popular belief, adults are NOT automatically entitled to respect, respect must be earned in ALL cases. So, knowing this, kid has now learned to respect  only those adults that are humble, can admit to making mistakes, can admit that they dont know it all, and know how to give kids a little credit when deserved, etc.

Kid goes completely crazy after so much time incarcerated in a program, becomes highly irresponsible, parties all the time, etc...all in an effort to regain their stolen childhood and to rebel against their unjust incarceration.

Kid's ability to interract normally within all relationships is drastically impaired as a result of program damage, including but not limited to, inability to trust others, and due to program induced PSSD/mental heath issues.

Kid now recognizes the importance of hanging around these boards to help stop program madness, and to help enlighten others as to the true horrors that await children subjected to progam dogma....

Kid justifiably vents anger and resentment over his/her unjust program incarceration....for kid knows he/she has ever right to vent....

Kid knows that program nearly destroyed his/her life, kid knows he/she will have to live with program damage for the rest of his/her life...kid knows that the only thing in the world that can "save" kid's lives, is to keep them as far away from these programs as possible....

[Anonymous]

Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation?  A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality.