Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Shortbus]

At SUWS, if you chose to not get up, that was your choice. The natural consequences of the choice might be being bored with not doing anything, being yelled at by your peers, having to do a journal assignment about your behavior, having to explain and justify your decision. I didnt really care whether you got up or not. I had paperwork to catch up on and I could always do some reading. So if a whole group decided not to get up (which would require forethought and organizing) I would be fine with it. But the other students probably would not be. If the group decided to not get up I would probably compliment someone on their organization and leadership skills; its not easy to get everyone on the same page.

[OverLordd]

indeed, did you ever see it done?

[Shortbus]

Nope, never seen it happen. Like I stated, it takes forethought and organization.

[OverLordd]

And the kids are not given a chance to do that?

[Shortbus]

Of course they were. I have no reason to deny someone the opportunity to use forethought or be organized. Those are two valuable skills I'd like to see practiced more often.

[OverLordd]

::shrugs:: hey sorry, dont mean to offend. I dont know if you keep them busy at all time, or dont let them talk or what not, as some programs do. Sorry, I just did not know.

[Shortbus]

Im not offended. Students have a full day, when living outside there is never a lack of things to do and tasks that need completing. I dont allow students to have private one on one talks. I dont think any wilderness program allows that. If you cant say something in front of the group then it probably doesnt need to be said. This policy is for the safety of students and instructors. So I guess if students want to plot and scheme amongst themselves they have to be creative. But if a student dislikes being there that much Id rather they had a plan and followed through instead of inflicting themselves on me.

[Antigen]

But.....

On 2005-08-23 16:55:00, Shortbus wrote:

"Of course they were. I have no reason to deny someone the opportunity to use forethought or be organized. Those are two valuable skills I'd like to see practiced more often."

Which is it?

G:   "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB:  "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4

[Shortbus]

Good point, I think I know what youre getting at.... Im pretty open with my students and I tell them up front that Ill respect their decision to take off but I want to make sure they are safe. That means having a plan and being prepared. They just arent going to have much opportunity to go behind my back and plan. If Im in the mix more than they like thats just too bad since its my show! No different than homelife. I keep my students busy and I spend a lot of time actively engaged with them. I dont like surprises when Im responsible for someone.

Thats a great quote attached to the above post!

[Anonymous]

You are at a real disadvantage when placed in a program. You are up against a group of semi-intelligent adults, who have a LOT of experience at keeping young adults in line. They are great at using manipulation to control the situation.

They try mostly to use the other kids as leverage. If one, two, or several kids in the group are at a 'higher level' of achievement, they don't want to risk getting in trouble. Just like real life. New people are more than willing to misbehave, what do they have to lose? Kids who have been there for a long time and realize they aren't leaving until they comply, WILL keep the other kids in line.

Most places have rules against new kids talking to each other, allowing you to only talk to the high achievers or whatever they call them.

Brat camp is strange to me because it is mixed sexes, and the ages vary so widely. The place I was at was a lockdwon facility, so I would have loved to be out in the wilderness, and to have girls would have been a plus as well. I would have been more concerned with nailing one of them than running away.

The fact that you, a counselor, say you wouldn't stop a kid from running is hard to believe. AM I understanding that statement correctly?  :wave:

[Shortbus]

You are correct about the running. If a kid wants to run Im notgoing to restrain them. I have asked kids  not to run at night because it was unsafe, to please wait until the morning. They agreed and thought things through and I suppose decided that maybe running wasnt the best idea. I tell kids to have a plan, to use some forethought. Why set yourself up for a life of running? So you run away from me, what comes next?

I had single sex groups and both sex groups. I had groups of twelve steppers. Every single group had kids from 14-17 years old, sometimes 18 too. After the first week kids were allowed to talk to one another but not unsupervised. eg. two kids werent allowed to go get water or firewood without an instructor with them. This policy protected both instructors and students. Another policy that was strongly enforced was that an instructor was never to be alone with a student. There was always to be another person present either student or instructor. Twosomes bad thressomes good. Individual instructors were never to have private conversations with students.

And programs are no different than jobs or school. If youre the new kid you look to the regulars to show you the ropes -whats ok, whats not ok. I tried to teach the kids that there were times when they would need to rely on someone else for help - just like life. And there would be times when you might need to help someone else out too. Just like life. I didnt pit kids against one another, but I did spend a lot of time trying to teach them to work together as a team.

And I agree, you are at a bit of a disadvantage when you wind up in a program. But then again, Ive dealt with some pretty awesome manipulators that had me tying myself in knots! Ill have to say that most of the kids Ive had in programs have been a helluva lot smarter than me.(and Im sure many are quick to add that I must be a dumbass for being a wilderness instructor.) And thats one of the reasons they wind up in a program - because theyre too damn smart for their own good.  [ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-25 21:55 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-25 21:53:00, Shortbus wrote:

And thats one of the reasons they wind up in a program - because theyre too damn smart for their own good.

I don't understand. How can you come right out and say it like that and say it like it's a good thing you're doing? Why not just routinely drop newborn babies on their heads to eliminate that smarts problem? Why not just feed them all a lot of alcohol? That'll make `em all stupid enough for ya', wouldn't it?  :roll:

If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves.  It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.


Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Shortbus]

I try to not attach a judgement good or bad to my posts. I am describing the job. I never said what I did was "good" or "bad". My comment about smart kids isnt necessarily something with which I agree, its something Ive heard parents and therapists say. Does this help clarify. And why respond with something foolish like shaken baby and fetal alcohol syndrome? I guess I dont understand your point.

_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-26 05:06 ]

[OverLordd]

People are judged for what they say, you will be judged and I will be judged, when you tell us what something is about, or what happend, or what you did you will be judged for it. You were in a place to change what was happening, so you will be judged. Plus, if I shoot off my mouth I get judged, so does every one, if you dont wanna get judged dont say it.

[Shortbus]

How do you know I didnt change things while I was there? Immediately judging people... where does that get you? So I guess Ill judge you as a...