for whom the bell tolls

[Antibody]

interesting reads..

gt friend visited today.. asked if id ever seen this site.. so i read up some..

man.. there is a bit of fact, a bit of fiction, and plenty of opinions to go around..

i left prior to the alleged rape incident at gt, i can say however that from the time gt opened to just 6-8 months before the dates on the police report there had not been any incidents to my knowledge..

I had the privledge of knowing TS. I had a private conversation with him the friday night before he killed himself. I believe he thought of me as a confidant, but he never expressed any depression or suicidal thoughts/ideas/intentions. We talked about his mom, his son, his acting career, the women on the amtrak, money he was saving for his 7 step necklace.. nothing to indicate he was thinking of killing himself.

Yes there were rats in the gt building at one point. this is so fl, we have rats... i killed one in my garage just this week! to my recolection nozzel nolan was a big supporter of the program and took care of the problem.

gt's biggest problem to be really honest was the executive staff.. i hear a lot of critisism about 'kids helping kids' but with the exception of a few the peer staff was awesome. there were a few real hardasses who i wont name... girls side was far worse than guys.. some of the girls staff would have given hitler a run for his money. worse tho.. these tyranical staff were praised by the executive staff (and by the parents, most of these parents wanted their kids to be held accountable by a strict staff)

1st executive director of gt f.b. he didnt last long but boy was he an idiot.

2nd was t.c. and she always had this look on her face like she needed to get laid.

t.c. brought in b.g. who was very forgetful. locked her keys in her office and her car dozens of times, couldn't remember program rules.

ivan the terrible... ever hear about those guys who are 'this close to going back to the bottle' (and the rest of us would be better off if he would hurry the fuck up and do it?)

m.b. what can you say about m.b.... **hears crowd begin chanting... "bring back ivan.. bring back ivan"

as a staff member i refused to do a couple of admissions, kids that had cigarettes and chocolate as drugs of choice, wtf?! I became increasingly unpopular..

we had a staff member who had been thru the straight program in cincy (i think). i got the impression based on how he wanted to run things that we were 1000x more lax at gt. i was a 7stepper and he still tried to bark orders at me from time to time.

it sounds like they still have an idiot in charge.. they always had 1-2 staff that were genuinely good people steve m, george m, mickey b (there were 2 mickey b's and no one that knew either would have a hard time determining which one is the **** and which one isnt)

man, getting tired!

lets see..

i remember when they did infact outlaw beltlooping or modify its use based on state laws.

newcommers were allowed privacy in the bathrooms (oldcommer outside the door) this changed toward end of my time there

they did a lot of training for the staff on how to physically hold someone, at some point kids were not allowed to restrain other kids any longer

if there was a room as described with blood and hair in it, from someone physically abused, i never saw it.

if a kid had to kill a roach at dinner it was probably because he threw his food across the lunchroom and pissed in the corner.. as stated before nozzel nolan was a big supporter, i bought an auction item from them once. they sprayed and fumigated that place like clockwork.

some of the kids were just plain fucking nuts and needed to be in a psych wards. executive staff did not want to send them at times.. they did sooner or later start sending some out to psych units. its not my opinion that they didnt want to send the kid out but that they really believed they could help everyone..

i dont believe gt was ever in it for the money.. they had a huge scholarship writeoff.. they constantly fought the discussion of admission fee hikes.. they had a generous sliding scale... they paid the staff shit..  they went after some people in court to 'prove a point' i think.. problematic familys maybe.. not sure what it was...

anyhow.. thats enough for now.. ill try and drop back later to follow up but im really past that time in my life.. im old and my memory is chronically bad.

besides if i say too much more people will figure out who i am and they might come drag me back for a refresher.

_________________
life 2/87
gt transplant/gt staff(decommissioned)
return undef() if /fundamentalism/i;[ This Message was edited by: Antibody on 2005-07-01 23:12 ]

[Antibody]

also.. just so everyone has an understanding of my current thoughts/opinions toward my entire experience at gt...

i have very fond memories of the time i spent at gt. the people i met, the experiences i had, if i had it to do over again...

i would have plotted an uprising and made my escape...

by day 3.

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-01 23:09:00, Antibody wrote:

"interesting reads..



gt friend visited today.. asked if id ever seen this site.. so i read up some..

Welcome Antibody.

man.. there is a bit of fact, a bit of fiction, and plenty of opinions to go around..


i left prior to the alleged rape incident at gt, i can say however that from the time gt opened to just 6-8 months before the dates on the police report there had not been any incidents to my knowledge..

Are you absolutely sure you knew everything that was going on? After all, you didn't come up through that group. Lot of things went on in Sarasota that out of town staff probably never knew. It's not asif you could just send up a chain of command w/o risk. There were always risks.

I had the privledge of knowing TS. I had a private conversation with him the friday night before he killed himself. I believe he thought of me as a confidant, but he never expressed any depression or suicidal thoughts/ideas/intentions. We talked about his mom, his son, his acting career, the women on the amtrak, money he was saving for his 7 step necklace.. nothing to indicate he was thinking of killing himself.

That's very sad. Any thoughts on why it went down that way?

Yes there were rats in the gt building at one point. this is so fl, we have rats... i killed one in my garage just this week! to my recolection nozzel nolan was a big supporter of the program and took care of the problem.

That's so. In fact, any place where there are people there are bound to be rats. I live in a 100 yo town on a river. Not only rats but gofers the size of cocker spaniels! It's a constant battle. But, of course, we don't have the problem of not being able to let outsiders in to help out, so that makes it easier to deal with.

these tyranical staff were praised by the executive staff (and by the parents, most of these parents wanted their kids to be held accountable by a strict staff)

Yeah, people make the same complaint about a lot of these places. Thing is that when the decent ppl get a leg up and take control of a location it breaks the process and the place soon closes. You can't pay the bills by refusing intakes and you can't effectively control a group w/o that iron fisted, snitch culture element. So secrets get out, people see through the scam and quit supporting it. That's why staff who think and are reasonable are usually drummed out pretty quickly.

executive staff did not want to send them at times.. they did sooner or later start sending some out to psych units. its not my opinion that they didnt want to send the kid out but that they really believed they could help everyone..

Well, that's part of the problem. As you noted above, the 'successful' staff (those who hang around and gain influence in the organization) tend to be bug all crazy themselves.

i dont believe gt was ever in it for the money.. they had a huge scholarship writeoff.. they constantly fought the discussion of admission fee hikes.. they had a generous sliding scale... they paid the staff shit..  they went after some people in court to 'prove a point' i think.. problematic familys maybe.. not sure what it was...

No, the money is just a means to an end for true believers. But there damned sure is a lot of money involved. And, most of the time, a fair chunck of it goes to protecting their delusions about their high holy ends.

anyhow.. thats enough for now.. ill try and drop back later to follow up but im really past that time in my life.. im old and my memory is chronically bad.



besides if i say too much more people will figure out who i am and they might come drag me back for a refresher.

Well, every little bit helps.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Antibody]

i didnt know everything going on at life, i was there only a short time and on 1st/2nd phase.. 2-3months.. gt was a much smaller group.. life was hundreds of kids, gt was under 40 kids and easier to know whats going on...

at gt i never heard of any such incidents until the one reported after my time.. there was no tradition of initiation along the lines mentioned. even tho i was on staff i still to this day believe a client would have told me. i had left staff on a couple of occasions and went for real world experiences. during my times back at gt i was more involved in aftercare and my relationship to lower level clients was a bit different than the norm... i made a point to get to know them on a personal level with the idea that next summer when i returned they might be in aftercare and under my 'supervision'

for sure none of this happened during my time in the program... yes there were times that oldcommers/newcommers behaved in sexually inappropriate ways im sure, yes its possible things went on i didnt know about.. honestly, if there were any circle jerks i didnt know about im definately disappointed because as one of my good friends says 'we were all hornier than 3 dicked dogs'

TS... i dont know where my obligation to maintian confidentiality lies..

... did you ever know a person who was caught between a rock and a hard place? they didnt want to be where they were but the other option was far worse? concerned that if they faltered they would be forced to take the alternate path? sometimes when we make a mistake... we can only see one path and despite what others say or do our mindseye sees differently...

there were some kids sent to gt/life/etc by a judge who said 'finish this and you wont go to jail' and yet there was atleast one where the judge was still undecided about future jail time due to the seriousness of the charges... lets just say some of those could still be doing time to this day.

the bug all crazy staff is an environmental element. they think the only way to stay clean is to be a militant in their own lives, these are the ones that crash hardest. as you noted trying to change that only meets resistance. short of busting out those kids whose parents signed them into treatment, the only other option is to educate them correctly into the way the world works. (my thinking at the time)

i still dont think the money is as much of an issue... atleast in palm beach.. taking in clients to make 10-15k wouldnt cut it.. i seen the books and they spent 30-40k on each kid. palm beach is rich land and the donations were forthcomming.. honestly, those in charge had a different agenda... they were trying to undo their own pasts... they had an abusive husband that drank... their father died from an O.D., yadda yadda yadda.. they thought if they could FIX one kid they could make up for the past.... i guess those are "delusions about high holy ends" =]

i marked for it to email me when someone replies so ill try to answer as i can if anyone has direct questions

_________________
life 2/87
gt transplant/gt staff(decommissioned)
return undef() if /fundamentalism/i;

[Antibody]

errr, is the forum wacked or is it user error =]

i think you likely have an open quote tag in your post antigen.

edit; looks ok now

_________________
life 2/87
gt transplant/gt staff(decommissioned)
return undef() if /fundamentalism/i;[ This Message was edited by: Antibody on 2005-07-02 08:50 ][ This Message was edited by: Antibody on 2005-07-02 10:34 ]

[Antibody]

one other item as my brain reflects on this time...

during most of the time that TS was around there was also a Dr B who was a member of the staff, (there were 3 different Dr B's over the years). Dr B and TS had a closer relationship than most, likely due to the fact they were both black but also due to the fact they both had a child about the same age.

the claims that TS was not seen by a psychiatrist are 100% wrong. their schedules were such that they were both in attendance on wed each week for the very purpose of visits. sometimes these visits were off the record next door at the pizza joint (sorry for the use of the word 'joint' here if that makes anyone uncomfortable) and sometimes behind closed doors.

Dr B shared the news with the group and was as wrecked as anyone else.

TS had a personality that made everyone love him. It still breaks my heart. I still see the faces of his friends. Many are still my friends.

blah.. its spose to be a festive holiday weekend!

[Antigen]

Yup, I did have mismatched quotes. Thanks.

On 2005-07-02 08:47:00, Antibody wrote:


TS... i dont know where my obligation to maintian confidentiality lies..



... did you ever know a person who was caught between a rock and a hard place? they didnt want to be where they were but the other option was far worse? concerned that if they faltered they would be forced to take the alternate path? sometimes when we make a mistake... we can only see one path and despite what others say or do our mindseye sees differently...

Well, you've just described at least half of the ppl who frequent this forum (at some point in their lives, anyway) And I'm of the opinion that it's a dire mistake to intentionally cause that kind of double bind pressure on a kid; especially those who actually did have issues to begin with. I think that alone accounts for the unusually high incidence of suicide among program vets.

i still dont think the money is as much of an issue... atleast in palm beach.. taking in clients to make 10-15k wouldnt cut it.. i seen the books and they spent 30-40k on each kid. palm beach is rich land and the donations were forthcomming.. honestly, those in charge had a different agenda... they were trying to undo their own pasts... they had an abusive husband that drank... their father died from an O.D., yadda yadda yadda.. they thought if they could FIX one kid they could make up for the past.... i guess those are "delusions about high holy ends" =]

Yup, that's always been my (unpopular) position. It's easy to point to a large cashflow and then appeal to rather socialist ideas about the evil of money and call it a day. But I've always thought that the Program runs firstly on pathology among the core staff, secondly on money.

A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001

[Antibody]

further;

i will make a great effort to respect the confidintiality of anyone and everyone i can (client side most of all). If i am vague please understand why.

the artical which i read also had several unfounded quotes by a mr blanchard, a member of the board of directors.

"Growing Together refused to yield to either Gersten or the DCF. In a letter dated March 30, 1990, then-Board President Warren Blanchard appealed the probationary license. Blanchard also disputed nearly all of the state's findings. The only actions Growing Together had taken, according to Blanchard's letter, were to stop giving classes to children on restraining their peers and to define more clearly when staff should use physical restraint."

gersten was a judge that ordered the release of a client and the client was released, this is the only involvement to my recolection. gt followed the laws as outlined by the dcf and joint commissions, at times there were interpretations of laws that were brought into question, i remember this pretty clearly but i only remember very strict orders from above to comply with any and all dcf and jcoha rulings. to suggest that gt had any pull with the gov is silly in my opinion, even when m.b. had congressional alies... most of the issues dcf raised were ruled in dcf's favor and gt was compliant.

lets put that all aside... my biggest issue is with the light it paints mr blanchard.. who at the time was primarily involved in helping to oversee gt's financial health, i believe he was invited onto the board as a parent of 2 6th phase kids primarily due to his background in finance and his participation ended on or around the time his older son left staff.

[Antibody]

Well, you've just described at least half of the ppl who frequent this forum (at some point in their lives, anyway) And I'm of the opinion that it's a dire mistake to intentionally cause that kind of double bind pressure on a kid; especially those who actually did have issues to begin with. I think that alone accounts for the unusually high incidence of suicide among program vets.

I think in this case however, one of the rocks was put in place long before gt. it was no ordinary rock,. it was a boulder of grand porportion. placed in the path by the very person trying to walk said path...

If you ask someone... Are you happy to be here today? and the response is "im so thankful im here and not in prison"... it hits your heart different when you know its real, not a 14yo kid who has been scared into thinking 'if i wasnt in gt i would either be dead or in jail cause i tried pot 3 times'




_________________
life 2/87
gt transplant/gt staff(decommissioned)
return undef() if /fundamentalism/i;[ This Message was edited by: Antibody on 2005-07-02 11:27 ]

[Helena Handbasket]

Welcome, Antibody... I've read your posts, and I think you're one of the more honest and forthcoming around here.  

If you ask someone... Are you happy to be here today? and the response is "im so thankful im here and not in prison"... it hits your heart different when you know its real, not a 14yo kid who has been scared into thinking 'if i wasnt in gt i would either be dead or in jail cause i tried pot 3 times'

I know what you're saying here -- and I truly agree.  The trouble I and most others have had with these programs is that the majority of the abuses that we've seen involve the 14 y/o who tried pot three times, then lose their entire adolescence in labor to a program they don't need.  That's where the question of ca$h comes in.  

True professionals would recognize an addict from an experimenting kid.  Sure, if you see a kid starting to screw up his life because they found a substance they like better, by all means, try to get them back on a more productive path -- but the militancy of the program was just "out there".  

Ah... but so I rant on again....  :smile:

I also read in your post where you said you're old and some memories are clouded... oh PUHLEEEZE!!!  I'm gonna bet you're younger than 35.  Come on... am I right??   :lol:

Anyway, nice to virtually meet you!

[Antibody]

ill be 36 but i feel old ;p

as far as being honest, i just tell it like i remember it, some will remember differently.. i was on both sides of the line (several times) so i have a couple of perspectives.

i could get invited to a meeting still and see whats taking place, its been a decade.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-07-02 14:36:00, Antibody wrote:

"ill be 36 but i feel old ;p

I'll be 36 this month ::cheers::
Feel old?  Then do something that makes you feel less old -- and I'm not talking about buying a sports car and picking up a hottie who's 10 years younger :razz:

And we all remember things differently -- the difference is that most won't admit they don't remember everything exactly as it happened.

[Nihilanthic]

How about roughly 15 years younger with his own sports car?  ::kiss::  :grin:  :wink:

I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it

--Harry S. Truman

[Antibody]

That was directed at sara right =]

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-07-03 08:44:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"How about roughly 15 years younger with his own sports car?  ::kiss::  :smile: