Author Topic: How in the hell did you guys take it?  (Read 9317 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2005, 10:08:00 PM »
Interesting.

Perhaps you don't read many dictionaries. There are many definitions to the term and word 'defensive' but the one I meant was regarding your defensive posture of your own comments. Not of your 'ideals' or anything else.

As I mentioned, I was not condoning anyone's actions or undermining anyone's abilities. I mentioned those who felt the need to break others wills, and those who were victimised by such people.

I then spoke of your continuing glib comments, and utter naivety and lack of understanding and compassion in the face of others painful experiences. Something you continue to exhibit with a cheerful smile, and angry remark.

The real irony of course, is you telling me, I'm condescending. One thing remains true through all of this.

You don't have a clue.

I urge you to find one, before reaching for your keyboard.

Anonymous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline OverLordd

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2005, 10:32:00 PM »
Fine, moving on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2005, 05:22:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-06-30 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"For those that bent, and harboured their own feelings and emotions deep within, the storm raged then passed, and they survived."


What if you can't find what you hid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2005, 10:30:00 AM »
Quote



What if you can't find what you hid.



"


Good question... i've been looking for a while too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline The Psychiatrist

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2005, 10:56:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-07-01 02:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-06-30 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:


"For those that bent, and harboured their own feelings and emotions deep within, the storm raged then passed, and they survived."




What if you can't find what you hid.



"


It's there, but learning to recognize it again is a difficult road. Identity was the key thing they stole from program survivors. Re-identifying means changing habits that you learned in order to survive at that time. Changing habits takes time and practice. Some may never find what they buried, unfortunately, but there is always hope. In the end it comes down to a personal choice one has to make. I know that sounds cliché, but it?s true.

Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]It is often tragic to see how blatantly a man bungles his own life and the lives of others yet remains totally incapable of seeing how much the whole tragedy originates in himself, and how he continually feeds it and keeps it going. [/i]  - Carl Jung

Offline Antigen

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2005, 11:43:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-06-30 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Being defensive shows that you were wrong,


Nope! This is just another little sticky bit of Program dogma that some people carry for life. People act defensively when they feel attacked and yet still want to interact. "Closing off" is also not a crime. It simply means you no longer wish to interact, for whatever reason.

Oh, and you don't have any special "Awareness", either. You've just been given the ability to make snap judgements based on subjective ques and to vest in them the faith of a crusader. It's not a gift, really!

If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2005, 10:14:00 PM »
Quote
"Nope! This is just another little sticky bit of Program dogma that some people carry for life. "

Program Dogma? You think you know me? Au contraire, mon ami. You don't. Such a snap judgment, and such a hypocritical thing to say...

Still you know that. Don't you?

Quote
"People act defensively when they feel attacked and yet still want to interact."

I beg to differ. People act defensively when they feel that they have:

A: Been attacked. (This would be incorrect. Overlord was not attacked, he was criticised. If he regards criticism as 'attack' that speaks more negatively of his ego and motiviations than anything else. Feel free to comment further. You now detract from anything he was trying to say more than I was doing, but knock yourself out.)

B: Feel that anyone with a differing viewpoint to their own, is using their response as a form of personal vendetta. (Also incorrect, and a subtle change from attack or criticism, but a noteable one none the less.)

Quote
"Closing off" is also not a crime. It simply means you no longer wish to interact, for whatever reason.

True enough. If he wishes to do that, it would be a good thing. It shows he has nothing further to add, and perhaps he's actually listening for a change before commenting. Who said he was not allowed to do that? Are you now telling me of his motivations?

Quote
Oh, and you don't have any special "Awareness", either.

I'm sorry! You're judging me now are you? Feel the need to do so, do you? Why? Your ego is screaming out for redemption for Overlord, and yourself is it?

Let's be succinct here. Why that need to say that?  I've never yet held my self in any high esteem, or tried to wave credentials or life story around, as to why my opinion is more valid than another. What I have stated is that no one's opinion here is more valid than another. I guess you were not listening. I wonder why?

It's all choice of course. You did not listen, because you did not want to. A shame.

Quote
You've just been given the ability to make snap judgements based on subjective ques and to vest in them the faith of a crusader. It's not a gift, really!


Au contraire once more. Having the ability to judge and invest in critical thinking, is an ability worth having. Still, that's hardly what I am doing is it? Or are you an expert on such matters?

As for crusader? I thought that was more Overlords territory. He seems able to solve all problems with a single keystroke... Are you jealous of that? Or jealous that I am able to refute many things people say? I can do that because I'm experienced in many ways of life, and can voice my thoughts.

You can do that too. It's not hard. Maybe you're just not trying. Or maybe I'm just having fun with you, it's all perspective is it not?

But no doubt, this is interpreted by you as a personal attack. Just like Overlord... Le temps dira.

Time will tell.

Anonymous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline OverLordd

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2005, 11:33:00 PM »
Quote
This would be incorrect. Overlord was not attacked, he was criticised. If he regards criticism as 'attack' that speaks more negatively of his ego and motiviations than anything else. Feel free to comment further. You now detract from anything he was trying to say more than I was doing, but knock yourself out

Your missing one. People also act definsively when they feel that they have been unjustly offended, you were being very condicending , so I considered this a offence to me, so I got defensive. Being defensive is not nessarally bad.

This is a very good example.

Quote
True enough. If he wishes to do that, it would be a good thing. It shows he has nothing further to add, and perhaps he's actually listening for a change before commenting. Who said he was not allowed to do that? Are you now telling me of his motivations?


Are you telling me you know mine? You speak as if I'm not a part of this coversation, this is a wonderful example of your condisending attitude.

You anon, are hiding your attacks behind well crafted speaches, and what you have to say is just a pretty "Fuck you".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2005, 02:09:00 AM »
Quote
Your missing one. People also act definsively when they feel that they have been unjustly offended, you were being very condicending , so I considered this a offence to me, so I got defensive. Being defensive is not nessarally bad.

Defence is only require when someone has attacked you. As stated that did not occur, unless your idea of 'attack' requires redefining.

Yours apparently requires exactly that. Hence the 'defence' you think you need to throw up.

As for being offended. Offence was given by yourself, and your glib responses. Hence your many apologies. I have no need to reply to you for your offensive comments. You needed to apologise, and did.

Quote
This is a very good example.

True enough. If he wishes to do that, it would be a good thing. It shows he has nothing further to add, and perhaps he's actually listening for a change before commenting. Who said he was not allowed to do that? Are you now telling me of his motivations?

All said as someone else was speaking up for you, and apparently speaking about you, and their opinion.

Quote
Are you telling me you know mine?

No. Nor have I pretended to understand them, why should I? You ventured forth your opinion and I did mine. You were wrong. You apologised. Good for you.

Funny though, whilst apologising you still find time to be 'defensive' as if you have something to defend against. Would that that were true eh? then you too, could be a victim, and cry foul.

No such luck. You're not a victim. Just glib unaware, and uncompassionate.

Quote
You speak as if I'm not a part of this coversation, this is a wonderful example of your condisending attitude.

You stand corrected. Someone else reduced you to a topic not I. I simply replied to their commentary about you.

Quote
You anon, are hiding your attacks behind well crafted speaches, and what you have to say is just a pretty "Fuck you".


As always with you, you are unable to discuss. You reduce everything to a personal 'attack' and act like Don Quixote tilting at some imaginary giant, while all you do is simply rally at windmills, trying to look heroic.

Maybe Dulcinea will be along to save you from yourself.

Again.

Anonymous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2005, 02:22:00 AM »
Get a fuckin' room, you two. :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2005, 09:32:00 AM »
Quote
Get a fuckin' room, you two


If you're jealous, go form your own relationship.

Envy is so unseemly.

:smile:

Anonymous.
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Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2005, 10:49:00 AM »
:wstupid:  :roll:
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Offline whiterabbit

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2005, 11:08:00 AM »
This is an interesting topic even if it is a little touchy. Every survivor has probably heard that question at some point and heard the"Well I would have.." or "Why didn't you just.." by someone who wasn't there. It is just so incomprehensible unless you were there.

I'm glad you want to understand.

It is hard to imagine the powerlessness of being there. The brainwashing, being broken  emotionally, physically, psychologically day after day. It seems like we should have been able to do SOMETHING. How could it happen to so many? How is it possible?

How did a few evil men convince an entire NATION that the solution to all their problems was the extermination of all Jewish people? And yet that's what happened in Nazi Germany.
How was the enslavement of an entire race deemed acceptable for hundreds of years? How did people fight for freedom while owning slaves? How about the crusades? Killing people for God. Apartheid? Stalin? Mussolini? Khmer Rouge? Communism?........ Republicans

Compared to those atrocities, breaking &  brainwashing a few thousand powerless teenagers & their frightened parents is child's play.

When I went into the program I was 15 and weighed all of 98 lbs. I had never heard my parents use a single foul word. They rarely raised their voices. I'd been spanked once in my entire life.

Suddenly I was told that I would not see my parents again much less live with them until I worked the program. I would never see my friends again. Life as I knew it was over. I moved frequently. No security. No trust. No help.No relationships. I was surrounded my shrieking, angry people. Kids were punished for the tiniest infraction of the rules. Looking at the guys side, crying, not crying, not motivating. Kids  carved on themselves with their fingernails, sporks whatever they could get. People tried to run, they were tackled and restrained. They jumped out of moving vehicles and were caught and punished. The police came & took a guy away in front of group. Handcuffed. Announced to us all that he was going to Raeffurt. One girl lost it and just freaked out. They took her to a mental hospital and made sure we all knew it.Punishment was random, swift and severe. The peanut butter diet, people exercised until they threw up or fainted, not allowed sleep, not allowed bathroom privileges until  they were forced to go infront of the group, confronted for hours, isolated, humiliated.

Initially they said it would be two weeks. I looked around and thought Ok two weeks of playing along vs hopeless fighting? I can do it. I'll just play along. I can't describe the shock when they brought a girl to the back of the group who had run and was being started over after being there a YEAR.

Eventually I made it to 2nd phase and ran. Got convinced to go back. Ran again. This time we called the authorities. HRS. The calvary. They told me I could leave but my parents wouldn't let me come home. That I'd go to a shelter home. That it would be so much worse than Straight. What did I know? They were the authorities.

I stayed. I was punished. Hopeless. Powerless. And after 9 months, broken. I bought it.Believed it all. It was THE way to survive. The only one my brain could find.

Two months before my 18th birthday I started planning. I'd already graduated but knew I was being watched, Knew they would make me do it all again and they'd have to do it before I turned 18. I got in touch with my best friend. Hadn't spoken to her in 3 years-since the day of my intake. I took her to the building. Showed her the layout, the exit points, If I disappeared she would collect a group and they would physically liberate me. I phoned HRS. Again. But this time I talked to one person. Tried to make him understand what had happened and what would happen. I gave my friend the number for the ACLU and HRS. I put money and her number in the sole of my shoe in case I had to run.I made arrangements to live with a friend if necessary. I was in HIGHSCOOL. Four days before my 18th birthday it all went down. I let everybody know about all of my plans. That I would be there not one minute past my 18th. After 3 YEARS I was free.

But as the song goes, "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"

It was 20 years before I knew how much damage I took and took WITH me even after I left. I had no point of reference. My idea of normal wasn't but how could I know? I had nothing to compare it too.After 3 years it was the only kind of living I knew.

They drove home our powerlessness every single day and with every opportunity. Time will wear you down. Make you hopeless. And eventually your mind will choose a way to survive. And most were pretty powerless over that choice too.

It was far more powerless and hopeless than you can probably imagine.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]

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Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2005, 11:12:00 AM »
Excellent and insightful post, Whiterabbit.
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Offline Anonymous

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How in the hell did you guys take it?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2005, 11:35:00 AM »
Quote
If you're jealous, go form your own relationship.

Envy is so unseemly.

ZZZZzzzZzZzzZzzzzzZZZzzz.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »