Does Deborah's Anti-Psychiatry posts help anyone?

[Paul]

On 2005-06-26 15:41:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Now panning Safe Harbor's potential protocol to California's Mental Health Services Act. They have what could be a good thing. If they introduce it without identifying themselves as Scientologist it probably won't fly. If they are upfront it might.

Deborah,

Sorry but I won't be buying into your controversy baiting. It is simpler. The services are going to
be voted on by committees set up in each county.

The committee members have no conflict of interest
positions, it is up to them.

Once again, as I stated in my original post, it is my opinion, and the same one I always post about why people get so upset when they find out after the fact that they have been working with a group affiliated with COS.

Once again, it is not because of the dogma of Scientology, but rather being mislead. Got it?

---

Regarding ablechild.org, I refer you back once again to the search wich I posted verbatim. If it incorrect blame the search engine company, I believe it is google that I used, and blame the outdated links. I posted my resource on this subject, now to not be redundant, I am done on this topic, ok!

Thank you,

Paul

[Paul]

Paul, PM me. If you promise to quit flooding, I'll lift those bans.

Ginger,

I appreciate the opportunity you gave me to clarify the issues, and for you to explain what flooding was.

To the Fornits Community,

For all to know, I don't post to boards like these so I am a novice at protocol and etiquette. I do
utilize listservs, but I am unfamiliar with rules of a board like this.

I hope there will be no problems in the future, if I am breaking the rules of Fornit's a simple PM, or a post of constructive criticism and explaining how to do it right will clear everything.

I guess I am like most people and respond to insults poorly.

Paul

[001010]

On 2005-06-16 10:59:00, thepatriot wrote:

"

On 2005-06-16 09:01:00, Paul wrote:


"What is your solution to not teaching sex ed?





When someone does get AIDS it is your goverment


with your tax dollars that pays for it.





Do you really think kids don't know about sex,


when you ask them and they deny it? Seriously now.





From what I hear you want to schools to not educate


about sex, not to screen for mental illness, correct.





Then when someone is diagnosed with a serious and persistant mental illness and they figure out that it started when they where younger you would not suggest that perhaps a screening would have helped this person. You would be satisfied the signs where all there, but the schools where not allowed to address the issue?





Why not? Because one family decided to not open their mail, while the rest of the town received their information on the TeenScreen, that you want


to throw out the whole test. Smart, very smart.





My illness would have shown up earlier in a screening. I wish they had them then, and I support them now. A couple of false positives can easily be figured out in a follow up appointment. These tests are simply information to be used as the family wishes, not a branding on one's forhead.





Regarding sex education, so what if they learn these things in school, isn't it better that learning it from the kids in the neighborhood?





How did you learn about sex? Should we all learn the way you did?"

Ok so lets teach 6th graders about oral sex, give me a break WTF. Thats the problem with our education system, they have forgotten about Math,Science ,Reading instead they are more interested in teaching your 12 year old how to give a blow job, how to masturbate(like any kid can't figure that out on his own). Or the big one why Suzi has two mommies. And they wonder why the system is a failure."

If a child is raped by an older student/or other, and forced to perform oral sex, and the kid doesn't know what happened to them, or are told by the rapist to think that what they (the child) did was wrong, then you have a problem. Not when schools are trying to be responsible and reasonable when some parents just aren't. Kids are exposed to sex and sexually related conversation starting around 12 years of age (many times much younger) by older kids, their peers or siblings and 6th grade is not too young to understand sex. Knowledge is a powerful thing, and sex education (in my opinion) can protect many a child.  

As far as screening goes - like Paul said, what if early detection helps the child greatly in the long run? Not every government program for children out there is a horrible awful program driven by a giant money-making-monster-machine. Early screening of a child with a serious mental disorder could help them get a foothold in what might be a life-long affliction for them.

I for one trust and believe in the science of psychiatry. Psychiatry has provided tools in my life that have been helpful and growth producing. I'm grateful for the self-awareness I've gained through the years of seeing a good psychoanalyst. Just because I was caught up in a terrible money making scam like all the programs still out there today, doesn't mean I see all psychiatric approaches as bad too.

Brainwashing/cultic-snake-oil-remedies are bad, but neurology and psychiatry are both fascinating and illuminating. Drug companies are evil, but the scientific objective is to help, not hurt. Yesss some doctors rely too much on meds and less on time with theirs patients, and yes it?s hard to find decent help (good shrinks are sometimes hard to come by) but many psychologist/psychiatrists actually do help.

In all honestly, I think most adults could use a good psychoanalyst in their lives.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke

[Antigen]

001010, I'm sure there are some good and helpful shrinks out there. I'm equally sure there are not enough of them to competenly treat every school aged child in the entire country. And I'm 100% sure that if we turn loose the monumental funding to carry off this mad hatter plan and administer it through our highly politicized public school system, it will be a total disaster.

If someone thinks their kid needs a shrink, then it's up to them to find qualified, competent (both! not either or) help for their child. Asking the school system to do this for us is a huge mistake! Forcing all of us to foot the bill for it involuntarily is just plain wrong!

The fatal pedagogical error is to throw answers, like stones, at the heads of those who have not yet asked the questions.

                               
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Paul]

On 2005-06-27 10:56:00, Antigen wrote:


Forcing all of us to foot the bill for it involuntarily is just plain wrong!

The way I would say this is that our elected representatives voted for funding the bill.

[Antigen]

Some people are of the opinion that the gang of 500 has made some terrible choices over the past 100 years or so.

It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases

--Schiller (1759-1805)

[Paul]

On 2005-06-27 11:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"Some people are of the opinion that the gang of 500 has made some terrible choices over the past 100 years or so.

Absolutely, and the worst part is we, the voters
keep on electing them ... to represent us!

[Antigen]

Paul, am I correct in assuming that you think shrinks hired by the PS system should be allowed to enter into dr/pt relationships w/ children without parental consent?

Do you think that the government should properly have custody of all children by default, not the parents?

What, if anything, should the government not be permitted to do to children w/o parental consent?

Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671877046/' target='_new'> Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.

[Paul]

On 2005-06-27 11:11:00, Antigen wrote:

"Paul, am I correct in assuming that you think shrinks hired by the PS system should be allowed to enter into dr/pt relationships w/ children without parental consent?



Do you think that the government should properly have custody of all children by default, not the parents?



What, if anything, should the government not be permitted to do to children w/o parental consent?

No to the first two.

Frankly even asking me these questions when
I never came close to stating these positions
is an accusation. I will answer now, but not
engage myself in yet another potential flooding
discussion.

The answer to number three, I think is best relayed your situation. I believe you have
homeschooled kids. You had and have that freedom.
The government, you will have to correct me, is
not influencing your actions or decision to homeschool. So the answer is that I would like you
to have the same freedom you chose to have now.

Regarding not being willing to repeat back to me what I have posted time and time again, and choosing to twist it into an accusation. That is
your choice, and frankly, makes me wonder if Deborah is not your alter ego.

I believe in a person's right to voluntary rights.
If they are violated I support their right to process the complaint to regain the voluntary rights. Just like we do here in little ole San Diego.

I also support the right for people to understand their rights.

OK, got it!!!

[001010]

On 2005-06-27 10:56:00, Antigen wrote:

"001010, I'm sure there are some good and helpful shrinks out there. I'm equally sure there are not enough of them to competenly treat every school aged child in the entire country. And I'm 100% sure that if we turn loose the monumental funding to carry off this mad hatter plan and administer it through our highly politicized public school system, it will be a total disaster.



If someone thinks their kid needs a shrink, then it's up to them to find qualified, competent (both! not either or) help for their child. Asking the school system to do this for us is a huge mistake! Forcing all of us to foot the bill for it involuntarily is just plain wrong!

The fatal pedagogical error is to throw answers, like stones, at the heads of those who have not yet asked the questions.



                               

Anonymity Anonymous

return undef() if /coercion/i;"

Well, I certainly see where you're coming from, and I know that there are special programs already out there that screen kids who appear to have special needs. I don't know anything about the "madhatter-plan" but if we're talking about younger children who are testing low, and the teacher-parent decision being to screen them then that's not always a bad thing. This subject is tainted in the first place because for 20-some-odd years now ADD drugs such as Ritilin (and family) have been getting shoved down the throats of children as if every child who just isn't functioning in school needs a jump start (literally) with prescription speed.  ADD is a product of the home environment in my opinion. Drugging a kid isn?t going to change that. I say give your kids hugs not drugs. They?ll find both either way regardless. :wink:

The problem with many parents is that they scapegoat their children into being the "problem" when it's really the parent/s who is the source of  the trouble. Say... leaving out that fact that they verbally abuse/physically abused/sexually abused/neglected the child. Sadly, people with money can do that but people with money don't rely on the system to help their kids do they? They hire professionals! :lol:

So, the system having a foot in the door of a young child?s mental health. I think it would honestly depend on a city by city, state by state basis. The truth is that some people are in the business for the good ? while others just want to make a dirty dollar.

As far as the sex education in 6th grade ? like I said, knowledge is power. I asked my daughter just a few minutes ago when she first remembers hearing about sex from a peer, and from both of our recollection she was about 6 years of age. Six years down the road she has a class about the facts? Sounds healthy to me, and as a parent, if it didn?t I could have her removed from the class and put in a different class for that 45 minutes. I believe a negotiation could be made with the school.

I stay in contact with all of my daughter?s teachers though out the school year. I make sure in the beginning of the year they know I?m very involved in her academic experience. I think each individual parent needs to own the responsibility of getting involved, and know what is going on in every aspect of their child?s development, and if we as parents don?t like how something is going, we should take action to change it.  

We will make mistakes. Learning from them doesn't make us heros. It only gives us a passing grade on the evolutionary scale.
http://fornits.com/wwf/' target='_new'>Antigen

_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke

[Deborah]

001010,
You missed the point. Easy to do since the topic was derailed from 'Sex Survey' to 'Sex Education'.

The issue was that 6th graders participated in a Sex 'Survey' without their parents knowledge or consent.
If it is appropriate for kids to be educated on the nitty-gritty specifics of sex in school, it certainly should be done with more thought than giving them a survey to ascertain when they last had sex, gave a blow job, had anal sex, and if they wore a condom.
That is not 'education'. That is information gathering, and for who's benefit?
Further, the parents were not allowed to view the survey, for fear they might 'misinterpret' the questions. I guess the district assumes their 11 year olds comprehend the subject matter better than their parents.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-06-27 12:41 ]

[Antigen]

Oh Deb, you do need to know a bit more about the clams if you're going to build a sensible position on psychiatry and drugging. Just take a walk through Clearwater anytime you wish. There are always flyers posted by families and friends looking for missing people. COS has been deemed a cult in most industrialized countries. That's fact. It's unwise to trust their information sources. In a word, they make WWASP look like church ladies by comparison when it comes to slapp suits.

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant

[001010]

Deb, Where did you read/hear about this survey?

(And sorry to jump in in the middle here)

I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke

[Anonymous]

The only thing we should be teaching kids is to worship Satan.

[001010]

On 2005-06-27 12:57:00, Antigen wrote:

"Oh Deb, you do need to know a bit more about the clams if you're going to build a sensible position on psychiatry and drugging. Just take a walk through Clearwater anytime you wish. There are always flyers posted by families and friends looking for missing people. COS has been deemed a cult in most industrialized countries. That's fact. It's unwise to trust their information sources. In a word, they make WWASP look like church ladies by comparison when it comes to slapp suits.

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant

"

http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... en413.html

"Scientology is quite likely the most ruthless, the most classically terroristic, the most litigious and the most lucrative cult the country has ever seen. No cult extracts more money from its members."
-- Cynthia Kisser, former Executive Director, Cult Awareness Network.

Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
 hands are properly his.


--John Locke

_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke