Author Topic: forced child labor camp  (Read 7009 times)

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Offline katfish

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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2005, 03:56:00 PM »
i guess they've made some improvements, just wasn't the case while i was there-  maybe your right, hard to believe, and yet John did serious damage to some girls. I personally would would like to see him out all together.  i dont trust John at all, speaking to former staff and my experience, i would doubt highly he would allow much competency among staff if it went against his vision of MMS- like it was while i was there (physiological stress and labor as therapy). Just look at Gary.  
i look forward to hearing from girls who are there now, in the future.  that's really the only way of knowing the day to day affairs.  again, checks need to be in place.  things happnened before that were unaccpetqble, nothing will change that fact, including arguing that things are different now.  I believe John is guilty of misleading parent and hampering many girls lives, instead of helping them repair the damage, leaving them to do twice as much work to lift themselves up...i have heard this enough to know that its so and its very sad.  

great MMS made changes, now we need people to go in and make sure of it, often.  and studies done too. let the games begin.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2005, 04:03:00 PM »
Anon "who is not an old chap:" is there a LICENSED therapist who leads each and EVERY group session?
IF THERE IS NOT, and if ANY of these Group Session are led by some staff member is IS NOT LICENSED, then SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG, and a great injustice is being done to each and every girl sitting in on these little group sessions!

That is the bottom line!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2005, 05:28:00 PM »
i hope you all are aware that your use of the term 'licensing' is misleading.  

The State of Montana does not have any have ANY licensing NOR regulations for these programs, so even if MMS has an MSW or whatever, as they did before with Gary, it is still NOT a licensed facility. These facilities fall into 'substitute care' providers. Legislation, such as fingerprinting and background checks do not apply to these programs. There are no rules that they have to follow.

They can basically do what they want and no parent would be the wiser.  There is no data on the effectiveness, etc... Remmeber all those ed cons who spoke so highly of MMS?  Appearances can be EXTREMELY deceiving and the kids pay the price.

Regulation would require not only allegations of abuse to be reported, but penalties for not doing so.  Allow the state to inspect the site WITHOUT having to wait for allegations of abuse to be reported, parents to visit freely and AT ANY TIME  WITHOUT WARNING to ensure their childs safety.  Require a screeing process (psychological, etc) and written plan identifiying how will be addressed, and yet John Mercer lobbied against this.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2005, 05:54:00 PM »
that's true and, incidentally, they would also require their methods be subject to peer review  through an accredidation program such as COA, AEE, CARF, JCAHO.

This is the most sensible thing I've heard in a loooooooong time.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2005, 07:05:00 PM »
yes, a licensed therapist leads EACH and EVERY group session.  i've said my peace.  and i agree that these programs should be regulated.  they ARE accredited though, and go through a very long process to become so, and renew it.  i agree that some girls were hurt by the school which is awful and they should somehow be given compensation for that... like all programs, they've changed and developed and are running very smoothly now!  haven't had an intervention since '03 either!  something's working right.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2005, 07:07:00 PM »
accredited by who?
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2005, 10:44:00 PM »
none of those organizations are accrediting- not in the the therapuetic sense, where peer review is required.  Like all scientists, to establish legitimacy and lend not just credibility but verify the methods you use have been researched  and are ethical you need accredation through institutions like COA- Council on Accreditation, AEE- Association for Experential Education, CARF Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities, JCAHO Join Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare.  MMS is not accredited, only through educational orgs.

They basically hold themselves up to their own standards and those may be as arbitray as they were then...or not.  Either way, they are not letting anyone make that determination but themselves, therein lies the problem.  They messed with girls heads before and came across as quite legitimate then, certainly it would be foolish to find solice in words like- 'but they are different now'.

I'll be willing to bet a million bucks they still use labor and psysiological stress to break kids down.  That is John Mercer's model (of course other schools do the same thing) and I find it highly dubious that will change.  He knows no other methods.


Waygookin- you'll get a kick out of this one, did you know that the students did all the paperwork required for accreditation through PNAIS?  (welcome relief from the strenuous physical labor, i've heard)  and it cost parents how much a day for kids to do this schools work?
LOL and this is therapuetic how?  Ladies that were there, what did John or Collee say this was a metaphor for?[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-16 19:47 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2005, 11:28:00 PM »
it's a legit form of therapy... behavioral modification.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 12:59:00 AM »
that has not been sumbitted to peer review- not the way they implement it.  Just ask the Phd's.  So no, these methods have in fact not been deemed effective, in fact its the opposite- find out for yourself, drop them an e-mail.   BM is generally associated with postive reenforcement, from what i've read- not the constant negative/punishment/streefule MMS style treatment.  If you e-mail this PhD she will glady give you the facts on forced labor and excersize as punishment, MMS style.  She and I have spoken- i assure you, these methods havenot been determined as beneficial and have been documented to cause more problems.  Let me know what she says.

http://www.nospank.net/pinto.htm

kat
[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-16 22:40 ]
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2005, 08:44:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-16 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"it's a legit form of therapy... behavioral modification."

Wow, all these years I never knew the rats in the Skinner Box were getting therapy.  They must be happy, well-adjusted rats.  :roll:
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2005, 10:48:00 AM »
LOL- DJ that was funny.  Ok, for those who don't know, BF skinner suumary below-  
  Skinners theories are completely depressing- I read somewhere that Harvard students were getting very depressed after studying Skinner (really!) LOL

http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/ere ... story.html

B.F. Skinner's Contributions
 Skinner, the greatest behavioral psychologist of all time, is known as the "father" of operant conditioning. He rejected the idea of inner causes for behavior, and placed emphasis on observable behavior as opposed to the theorizing, based on unverifiable evidence, often done by others.  He discovered that whether a response to a stimulus continues to occur depends on the consequence that follows that behavior.  The promptness of administration of that consequence is also important (more timely consequences have a greater effect).  He also experimented with different "schedules of reinforcement" (see below), and devised a procedure known as "shaping" (see below
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2005, 12:51:00 PM »
This is why the statement I quoted below is so completely laughable.

Behaviorism, in relation to humans, is a dead ideology.  It doesn't work.

In complex organisms, like people, it is necessary to change thought patterns (cognitions) to make effective, LONG TERM behavior changes.

Sure, put a kid in a modified Skinner Box, i.e. RTC, BMW, WTP, etc., and you'll get a kid that quickly learns to behave "correctly" within the framework of that PARTICULAR environment.

Unfortunately, the "new" behaviors are specific to ONLY THAT ENVIRONMENT, and are quickly extinguished when the "subject" is removed from the environment in which the desired behaviors were reinforced.

The other problem with this type of program, is that they don't use "positive reinforcement," i.e. rewarding desired behaviors, but rather "negative reinforcement," i.e. the REMOVAL of an UNPLEASANT STIMULUS upon the completion of the desired behavior.

The staff literally terrorizes the child into submission and never lets up until the "undesirable" behavior is no longer exhibited.  

The problem with negative reinforcement is twofold.  One, it, like positive reinforcement, has only a short-term, environment-specific effect, and two, it works even less well than positive reinforcement, which, as shown by literally volumes of research, doesn't provide any significant change over time.

So, these BM techniques, simply put, foster behavior changes that are both environment specific and short-term.

So, anon poster, please do edify the rest of us how BM is "legitimate therapy."  Am I just missing something, or are you privy to groundbreaking research that shows BM to be on par with or superior to cognitive therapy, or perhaps rational-emotive therapy?

Please educate us.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2005, 01:11:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-16 07:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"They aren't unlicensed... they have a group of licensed staff around to 'treat' these disorders.  They have PHds and masters in psychiatry, and couseling... so get off your god damned high horses and SHUT UP.  this place is legit so GET OFF IT."


can you even get a masters in psychiatry? lol

Dj, well said!!  Waygookin,   :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-17 10:12 ]
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2005, 01:47:00 PM »
No, Kat, you cannot get a "Master's of Psychiatry."  There's no such thing.  A psychiatrist, by definition, is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.  So, this is an MD, not an MA OR PhD.

Also, there's no such thing as a "Master's in Counseling" either.  One can be an MSW, like me, or an MA in Psychology.

This is one IGNORANT BLOWHARD you're dealing with here.

Yeah, that program sounds REALLY legitimate.  They go one step further than phony diplomas, they invent new DEGREES.   :roll:

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2005, 07:33:00 PM »
you guys are all fucking annoying
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