hello, my name is alicia

[Anonymous]

Brown,
One question why did you ask my experience and then immediately slip into psycholoigal studies. Want my experience? Here is a summary: I was 14 upon arrival (non drug user)honor student with a typical teenage attitude. I thought I was smarter than 99% of adults..in short I was a teenager with an attitude. What a shock huh? Personally I don't expect you to believe me b/c people often choose to deny what doesn't fit their view of the world.

But I digress. I choose to comply to avoid abuse. I knew I had 2 choices 1)graduate or 2) be in that institution for 4 years (until my eighteenth birthday.) So I played the game I said all the right things and in doing so hurt others along the way. As part of my "treatment" I had to confront others, I had to belittle them into "getting honest", I also helped restrain them physically. So please don't waste time doubting my story b/c I could write a page on my experience but I don't need your acceptance or acknowlegdement.

Once again I am a graduate and I first hand saw abuses. Also Brwon all graduates of my program helped abuse others. So this could explain why they choose to state "it saved my life" rather than maybe I am someone else's abuser. I am sure there is a psychological model for this syndrome also, if you care to research it.
The Graduate

[Brown]

Graduate, what facility were you out, you keep leaving that out.  It is a pretty easy question to answer is it not?  Did you graduate, or did you leave early?  

I am sorry if you thought that you thought that you had to comply to avoid abuse.  If you want to hear, when I was in the program, I followed the rules.  But as far as believing everything they told me, and taking as gospal, I never did.  If you thought that you had to do that in order to leave, then I am sorry.  That would be horrible.  My whole point in posting here is just to give another side of the story.  I think that if you really think back and think about what happened when you were there, you might see things differently.  I don't know though.  Maybe it was you that was brainwashed by the people that have drilled it into your head that you were abused, and that you helped abuse others.

[Anonymous]

Brown,
I was in Straight. You don't have to patronize me, but I can see the bullying tactics weren't lost on you. I have had plenty of time out of my program to think about it and what happened. Again I want to reiterate people often become hostile when their beliefs are not supported. Bottom line is I saw abuse and after 18 months I graduated...thus the name The Graduate. Thank you for the wonderful support. Jeez it is just a different opinion, calm down, call your program friends if you only want your view point supported.
The Graduate

[Brown]

How long have you been out?  Because you and alot of the other people on this site have said something that I can see.  That is that I only recently graduate.  Your right, I could have a different oppinion in a couple years.  

I have no problem with different points of views.  If I did, I would just post on the BBS.  I wouldn't have tried to find these sites.  Why did I find it?  Because I just wanted people to be able to here what I have to say.  When I read through alot of the posts when I first found these sites, I realized there was like no one that even mentions that things might be different than what the web gives these places.  

I said this on  another post on another thread, but I cannot say what happened years ago.  All I can say(which Deborah has pointed out) is what I myself expierenced or what I myself talked to others about.  So I can only say that in the time I was at Spring Creek there was no abuse.  And that from the graduates I have talked to, there was no abuse at their facilities either.

[Anonymous]

What would a parent rather have - a child in the juvenile system where they don't have anything to do but support each other in their attitudes and where real abuse happens,  or having to make the decision to send your child away to a program that works to bring the whole family back together and become healthy again?  

Brown - since you've been asked why it's hard to find graduates, what about asking your grad buddies to start posting on here?

[Antigen]

On 2004-10-12 15:36:00, Brown wrote:

So I can only say that in the time I was at Spring Creek there was no abuse.

It really depends on how you define abuse.

"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom."--Thomas Paine, Common Sense

Here's a scenario I've read and heard about over and over again from people who've been in various Synaon based or Synaon-like programs. A kid is singled out, in their turn, and required to discuss their sexual experience and private thoughts before a group of peers.

I never thought of this as abusive at the time. But is it ever appropriate to require a kid to divulge sensitive, personal information about themselves to a group of other kids? Can you see how that might be traumatic for some people?

I'm guessing that, like I did over 20 years ago, you just threw them a bone (no pun intended) and didn't divulge anything really important. But some kids weren't that savvy. They actually told the truth about their darkest secrets to the entire assembled body of their fellow captives, only to have this sensitive material thrown up in their faces later. Either that or staff told the group what the kid had written in a diary or what the parents had told them, true or not.

That, btw, is one reason why I insist on allowing anonymous posting to these forums. Even years later, some people do not wish to give their real names for fear that someone will remember some horrible confession.

But can you understand how you and another kid in the same place at the same time can view the same events very, very differently?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Antigen]

On 2004-10-12 20:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What would a parent rather have - a child in the juvenile system where they don't have anything to do but support each other in their attitudes and where real abuse happens,  or having to make the decision to send your child away to a program that works to bring the whole family back together and become healthy again?  

Well, having been in a program and, for a short while, in juvenile detention, I can tell you without reservation that the program was far more stressfull and damaging than detention.

Detention was boring. That was the worst part. After 2 years in the Program, I was already used to having no privacy, no comfort and no autonomy. The major difference was that, in detention, no one was harassing me constantly. No one demanded that I tell them everything I was thinking. I didn't get in trouble for not smiling. If anything, another inmate might ask why I was so down, but let it go if I didn't want to talk about it. I'm not exagerating when I say that it was like a vacation. My worst fear while I was there was that my parents and the Program would be successful in forcing me back into group.

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000051WYJ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.

[Deborah]

Ironic isn't it that some programs punish for smiling while other punish if you don't smile.
And all the while, teens are the guinea pigs in their experimental treatment laboratories.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:

"To the Graduate,



I am sorry that you say you saw abuses.  What facility did you go to?  When were you there?  What did you see?  I am really interested.  Because you certainly don't sound like all the other graduates that post.  I am not saying that I don't believe you, it is just really hard to believe you.  I am actually glad you posted.  You are the first person since I have started posting that says they were a graduate and that they saw the abuses.  Every other kid that posted that has been to the program has pretty much said that they agree with what I am saying.



Yes I know all about all of these experiments and so on.  Lets talk about the Bobo Doll experiment.  The experiment had kids play with a Bobo Doll, and then a group of adults came in, and beat the crap out of it.  Then when the adult left, the kids proceeded to beat the crap out of the doll.  Lets put that into the program world.  If there was a kid getting beat day in and day out, you would think that all of the other kids would also beat on him too.  All of the testimonies state that it wasn't all of the students that got beat, just a few of them.  So if you say that it is like that experiment, then there is something missing.  Because I haven't read a testimony yet where the student says that they were beat by all the other students.



Stockholm syndrome would only apply to people that were in the program.  It would have no affect on parents, or people from outside the program.  The Stockholm Syndrome says that captives start to side with their captives, and I have to dispute you on that too.  Because their isn't any graduate that wants to stay in the program.  When it comes time to go home, they are more than happy to.  Stockholm syndrome says that the "captives" start to side with their captures and they wouldn't want to leave that place.  The one thing that graduates and people that left(angry before graduation) is that we all wanted to leave."

I have been out of the program for about a decade. But I always knew what I saw and witnessed was abusive. I didn't have some post graduation epiphany. One major difference between our experiences that I can see is that you said you needed to change your behaviors. I on the other hand was not and am not today a drug user. I didn't have a "problem" they could fix. All I needed was a few years to grow up and mature, not a youth treatment facility.
The Graduate

[whiterabbit]

Hi Brown

I'm glad you had a positive experience. I am sure there are genuinely helpful programs out there. Those that are truly beneficial and legitimate would have no issue with transparency and tighter regulation. It would expose all programs for what they are, good, bad or horrifying.

I graduated from Straight Inc 22 years ago. I took staff training, led the sibling raps on Saturdays, stayed in the 7 step society for 18 mos., spoke at local kiwanis clubs, high schools and churches. I did some talk radio while still on my phases. Not only was it a great way to advance but I genuinely believed the program rhetoric that  I was sharing.

Of course I also believed that I had to control every thought in order to be happy, that feelings were just a momentary lapse of reason to be corrected with rational thinking, that I deserved all the things that happened to me there and forever after, that I was worthless.

And the abuse was real. I personally witnessed a girl get punched in the face by a senior staff member & get dragged across the room by her hair. I personally attended stakeouts attempting to capture and return kids who had escaped the program. I saw dozens of kids carving into their faces, arms, legs with anything they could find in an attempt to escape their overwhelming misery. I personally exercised in a windowless, air conditionless warehouse in central FL until I had rug burns, I personally saw girls faint or drink water until they threw up, I personally had my diary entry about losing my virginity read to 300 or so of my peers and was told what a selfish, worthless slut I was until I broke down, I personally was denied more than 4 hours sleep for weeks at a time, I personally was on the peanut butter & jelly diet for 30 days at a time-3 times, I personally moved from foster home to foster home weekly sometimes daily I personally was denied private bathroom privileges, I personally was denied the right to use the restroom at all on several occassions and was forced to go on the floor in front of hundreds, I personally was confronted and humiliated for using the bathroom, I personally cleaned up my urine as well as that of two other girls with my hands while the staff watched and giggled.

I was 15 and had smoked pot for less than a year.

And before you begin with the "you must be some kind of loser blaming all your troubles on the program" let me fill you in. I was married for 17 years, I have two children and have a successful career. When I was finally terminated from straight after my 3 year involvement, I was determined never to look back. And I never did.

Until my husband died and I found that my coping skills were somewhat compromised. I was struggling with grief and depression and an intense fear of vulnerability. I entered therapy and for the first time began to look inside and try and understand.

In spite of my experience I wouldn't dream of coming to this website and pronouncing that all treatment facilities are bad and must be closed down. There is simply no way I could know about every program or every individual's experience. Likewise there is no way for you to know about every program or every individual experience. Can you imagine how offended you would be if I responded to your post by saying you were crazy you couldn't have had a good experience because all programs are bad. You must not have graduated, been in long enough or done it right if you think they're useful at all. You must be a liar or stupid or drugged. Pretty offensive right? That's how your post came across to me.

Please do share your experience. But  it will be received more openly if you speak about YOUR experience vs making  all encompassing, sweeping statements and judgements about other programs or the people who were in them.

End of lecture. ::soapbox::

Talk amongst yourselves......

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln

[whiterabbit]

::bump::

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

[Anonymous]

On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:

"Stockholm syndrome says that the "captives" start to side with their captures and they wouldn't want to leave that place.  The one thing that graduates and people that left(angry before graduation) is that we all wanted to leave."

If you wanted to leave, why didn't you? You said you were 18 after 4 months in, but then stayed another 10 months willingly. Could it be that you were afraid of taking the exit plan? The 18 year olds who stayed were sell outs, pathetic. Afraid to go out on your own, and willing to do exactly what mommy and daddy wanted out of fear.

On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:
As far as Spring Creek goes, the facility doesn't have that many people on it. I knew all of the other kids there. By the time I graduated, I think that I could call of them my friends. And I can tell you that NONE of them ever mentioned the abuse, or did I ever see signs of the abuse. I am not saying at all that there never has been abuse. All I am saying is that in my very broad expierence of the program, I have never come accross solid evididence that there every was abuse.

You are so full of shit it isn't even funny. There has always been at least 300 hundred kids or more, and I hear there's even more now. You met and talked to everyone? All your friends? lmao
I hope people who never were at Spring Creek realize how full of shit you are, because this is unbelievable. You are a full fledge WWASPie, and totally ignorant to what goes on at that facility. But then again, the 18 years olds get it good, and I see how that could happen. I mean, they wouldn't want to give you a reason to leave- they're making a shitload of cash off your parents.

[Antigen]

Anon, please flesh that out a little bit for us. If you're confined to the extent that even older, higher level WWASP kids are, 300 ppl is really not a lot of people. There were usually around a hundred, sometimes less, in our group at Straight. If you had asked me then, I would have said I "knew" every one of them very well. But you find out later, as time goes on, that you really don't know them at all.

I also would have sworn at the time that I never witnessed or experienced abuse at Straight. But that's because I'd accepted the Straight, Inc. definition of what is and is not abusive. One of the most disturbing things about the whole experience was that there were one or two incidents that, even in my addled state, I recognized at the time as being just plain wrong. But I couldn't let it show, let alone actually say anything or get any reaction from anyone else who was there (you understand why, I'm sure). And so quickly put them out of my mind as a matter of self preservation. It was a long, long time before I remembered either of those events specifically or, generally, the day to day grind and how we all sort of went along a step at a time till all that lunacy seemed perfectly normal and sensible.

So let's talk about some of that. Seems asthough there's very little on the net about CCM. I'm guessing it's not the most overtly abusive of the WWASP facilities. But the threat of being sent off to some other place is not lost on me or anyone else who's read up on these issues. And I have to wonder, too, if CCM is as wonderful and loving and good as Perri and friends say, then why would they need a stick like that? Isn't the carrot enough?

Please fill us in.

While you were there, did you ever know of anyone who did get shipped off to another facility? For what? What was the impact on you, on others? Did you ever know someone who was transfered too CCM from one of those tougher facilities? What did you make of that?

No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:

[Janet]

Ginger,
 
CCM does use coercion.  They have the usual exit plan, but they also have parents tell their 18 year olds that they have a retraining order to keep them in the program should the child decide to leave.  One thing that they did to the girl I knew went to CCM was put her on antidepressants.  She was crying all the time.  Her mother couldn't imagine why! Still she  had no trouble tell her daughter that she had a restraining order to keep her at CCM.  

This kid was busted from level 3 or 4 at least twice.  It took her 74 weeks to complete her 36 week senior year.  And it took her 21 months to graduate.

There used to be two web sites about WWASP.  One of these was a good one about CCM.  Suddenly both of these sites were off the internet.  That happened about 3and 1/2 or 4 years ago.

CCM does have licensed therapists, but there are therapist and there are therapists.  I asked Perrigaud if she could tell me the degrees the therapists had and she never answered.  Maybe she never noticed or cannot remember.  Someone mentioned somewhere that most of the therapists were social workers with masters degrees (MSW).
MSWs and psychologists cannot prescribe medication.  I wonder who was prescribing the girl's antidepressants.  (By the way it was Zoloft.  She had quite a few of the drug's side effects, which didn't seem to bother anyone except her.)

Anyway, except for VOY there is little about CCM on the internet now.  Maybe because it is their flagship "school" they work harder to keep bad press off the internet and they are not as nasty to their prisoners.

[Anonymous]

A CCM survivor was on the Annie Armen show a while ago. Her story is pretty horrific, and is unfortunately very typical.