Author Topic: Amanda is HOME  (Read 14864 times)

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Offline Paige

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« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2004, 09:31:00 PM »
Wasn't much of it and it was not good.
also no toilet paper, no hot water lots of questionable activity no real education and no communication with the outside world and no she could not call or use email to contact anyone just her parents and whoever her mother decided to send the emails on to and that contact was on a limited basis and rare. She did not receive the emails we sent her through her grandmother like we were told -  big surprise.

Get your facts straight this place may not be the worst be it ain't no picnic either. Many of the kids there have become suicidal because they see no hope and there are many problems within the staff. Again that is about all that I am going to say now.

About 2 months ago the place was raided by the Mexican authorities. Many of the "students" didn't have valid visas and were deported. According to the consulate this happens fairly regularly. And Yes they did move the kids as many times as I had reported earlier and they keep the address of the place where they house the kids a secret. Even the consulate had trouble getting the address to do a welfare check. This information came directly from the consulate and once again YES she is in need of counseling do to this horrific experience and will get it from real professional people who have her best interest at heart not how much money they can get from her parents!!!!!!!!!!

If you think this place is so OK I would like to see you stay there for 6 months under the exact same conditions. Want to try it???
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aige

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2004, 09:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-20 05:38:00, JeffJizz wrote:




Back on topic.



Amanda is 17 right? Depending on the state in which you live she would be considered old enough to decide where she wants to live (even on her own). Although I do not know about Utah, that place is just one big f------ church.
"

Tis true she is 17 and that is a major portion of this situation. At 17 if a child is reported as a missing person they are not high on the priority list. We notified the parents in accordance with the statutes of the state of Utah and the state of Utah was notified.
A detective called and left a message for one of us to call him back. The Great Aunt called him back he was not in at the time so she left a message and he has yet to return her call.

The statutes are very clear that a 17 year old is not considered a runaway and the authorities are to check to see if the child left of her own volition. If so then under the statutes so be it case closed.
Our Legal team has worked very closely with us on this matter and everyone has complied with Utah statutes and Texas statutes.

Her Aunts and Uncles, Granparents and many many people are happy to see her and she feels loved and wanted. I think that this has been the most important thing. She feels loved. She is not as frightened as when she first got home and she is getting emotionally stronger. She has always had a strong faith in God and that has not changed. She believed we would find her and bring her home and she never gave up hope that we would just as we never gave up hope that God would take care of her and direct us to her to bring her home where she belongs. My faith is stronger now than ever before and I thank God daily for her return and for all of the people who have helped. God bless you all.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2004, 11:44:00 AM »
All I'm trying to do is understand the realities of the situation. You needn't be quit so defensive.

I know about some of what you've just written; I know some of it is true; but your not telling the whole story; which dose change the picture in significant ways. I'm not calling you a liar. I realize you don't know the whole story and so are only telling what you do know.

The raid and deportation has already been gone over on other links. I feel I understand the situation; how and why it happened. Its not something I see being a problem in the future.

I know a little bit about the problems with staff. Not a lot, but a little. The lack of toilet paper was related to a problem with staff. There was plenty of toilet paper but this person was not bothering to go get it.

Some of what you write I feel is a result of some exaggeration on your part; or rather, just not understanding what is generally meant by a lack of communication with the outside world; or lack of contact with family.

ALA has TV's and telephones and the kids have video games and watch movies. They are not cut off from the outside world. They go into town and shop and attend church and do community service projects. They are not cut off from the community.

They can talk to their family; but, its up to their family who else they can talk to; and that was your problem. If you and her Mom had not been at odds, you would not have had that problem.

My son called me at will; called his Gran Ma; called his sister; called his friends - because I was OK with all that.

As for the food, what he told me was, there was lots of it, and it was good, but very spicy. They had a hard time getting the cooks to make it milder for the unaccustomed American stomachs.
It was probably very different from what Amanda is used to as far as menu and style of preparation; and so I can see how she might not like it and not eat much of it; And So, how she would say, what she said about eating so much more now; but that is not the same thing as not being fed much.

The hot water thing is probably just reality in that part of the world. Have you asked why there was no hot water? Was it talked about or explained?

Life is different south of the border. Its different in Ky and Utah, for that matter. We think nothing of using Lots of water in Ky. I noticed in Utah the situation was very different.

As for the education, they use KeyStone, which is a highly regarded curriculum; and I know when my son needed extra help with some of the math, they got him a tutor and never asked me for an extra dime to cover it.

You mention kids being suicidal. This is serious and not the sort of thing you should be saying without knowing. What makes you say this?
If your going to make a statement like that, you can't just then say, that's all Folks. I'd strongly suggest, if you have any real kowledge of such, you need to be telling those who can help. And if you have no real knowledge, this is a rather serious aligation to make with no basis in fact.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2004, 12:42:00 PM »
Quote
"The hot water thing is probably just reality in that part of the world. "


Look Karen is trying to make excuses for ALA.

Quote
"You mention kids being suicidal. This is serious and not the sort of thing you should be saying without knowing. What makes you say this?
If your going to make a statement like that, you can't just then say, that's all Folks. I'd strongly suggest, if you have any real kowledge of such, you need to be telling those who can help. And if you have no real knowledge, this is a rather serious aligation to make with no basis in fact. "


Karen doesn't your son work for ALA now?  Isn't he a paid staff member?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2004, 12:51:00 PM »
Quote
The lack of toilet paper was related to a problem with staff. There was plenty of toilet paper but this person was not bothering to go get it.


Hey Dumbo, are not all of the problems in these places related to staff?  When a child is physically or mentally abused, is it not by staff? Of course it is.  So great point you made "there was plenty of toilet paper," but what good is it if the students don't get to use it?  I am sure your hero, Mr. Rogers, and your son, an employee, were not having to go with out toilet paper.

Looks like they are into humiliating teens to me.
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Offline Paige

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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2004, 01:09:00 PM »
Hey is this Karen????
If so  - good to hear from you.

Karen your son was there at a different time and things have changed dramatically from when he was there. I will not under any cicumstances divulge most of the information I have on the web and it is going to the proper authorities which you are not a part of. I would suggest you distance yourself from this facility as quickly as possible and I will not argue with you about what has happened to this child there since you were not there and have never been there.

If you do not like what is being said take your toys and go home but do not try to dispute my word or defend the actions of the staff in how they handled these children for you can not. Have we forgotten that Craig himself sent a threatening email to Josue predicting the death of Josue's son if he did not give up the law suit against Craig for basically stealing the $50,000 that was invested into this facility.
Do not try to defend the dealings of this facility. It is a corrupt and dispicable place geared to make money at the cost of God's children.
Tell me what is so Godly about that.

Craig Rogers in my opinion is a crook, a cult leader and is mentally unstable. There are allegations of drug use and drug scams and you haven't heard the beginning of this yet.

I am giving you fair warning now that you get yourself distanced or pay the consequences because Hell hath no Fury like a mother who's child has been subjected to such treatment and even though she is legally not my daughter in my heart she is and always will be and she is my son's sister which means I will protect her as if she were my own.

Now back off and rejoice that Amanda doesn't have any broken bones and that her broken spirit can be healed and that God has seen fit to send her home.
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aige

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2004, 01:52:00 PM »
Hi Paige - yes, its me and its been me for a while.
I am not wanting to argue, either. I have asked for clarification and further explanation and tried to point out how there are two sides to some of what you say.
I know well I am not a proper authority; nor is anyone here on this forum. Also, I am not associated with ALA in any way other than by past experience. That past experience is what I base my opinion on; as well as conversations with other students and parents. I am not calling you a liar. I think I said that already. And if the kids are being mistreated I would not be OK with that. Nothing I have herd from any other family would lead me to think you are on target.
I don't know anything about the people working in MX and corruption is possible. I do know Craig tho, and your wrong about him. He is So not about the money. This I do know. I would suggest, if you have information about wrong doing at ALA, you tell him. If you really want to help correct a situation you feel certain is corrupt; A respectful conversation might go a lot farther a lot faster.

I may back out of the conversation; not b/c you suggest I take my toys and go home; but b/c I realize I have no way to be helpful to anybody in this situation. My actual knowledge is limited.

I have told you I am happy for Amanda and I wish all parties well. I mean it. As this is the situation, I hope it is for the best. I hope you haven't caused a permanent family break. I hope everyone lives happily ever after.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2004, 01:55:00 PM »
PS
Craig never sent such a letter to Josue'. I have that from Josue' himself.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2004, 02:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-21 10:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

I would suggest, if you have information about wrong doing at ALA, you tell him. If you really want to help correct a situation you feel certain is corrupt; A respectful conversation might go a lot farther a lot faster.


Or he might just call you names, threaten to call the autorities w/ false accusations against you, threaten to sue you, threaten to sue me for letting you say what you want, threaten to sue my ISP and, failing all that, offer them a bribe to shut down these forums.

But of course, I'm only guessing what would happen.  :roll:

Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.

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Offline JeffJizz

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« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2004, 02:32:00 PM »
Karen.....

You are a cunt and I would love nothing more than to see you deep throat a turd.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2004, 03:30:00 PM »
troll.
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Offline JeffJizz

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« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2004, 03:41:00 PM »
Dwarf
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2004, 04:03:00 PM »
At a convention I talked to a staffer who used to work on the therapy side at Three Springs in Huntsville, AL.

She said that they would get kids in as transfers from some of the other BM schools and that she would have to begin treating these transfer kids for trauma for what had happened to them elsewhere.

She said her school had had occasional negative reports out on the net because they would occasionally get a new staffer who would mistakenly think they were a boot camp and say really awful things to the kids and then get promptly fired.  She mentioned an incident of getting the supervisor and walking her up the back side of a hill where a staffer was out with the kids, so the supervisor could hear what the staffer was saying but not be seen.  Staffer was fired, pronto.

She mentioned regularly telling people, "Don't send your kid to any program out of the country, or in Utah."

That wasn't just to get kids in to fill beds, either.  Apparently her school did regularly turn down placements where the parents were freaking over the trivial and really needed at home family therapy.

This is not a push for that school---I think kids should be kept home whenever possible, and that it's possible a lot more often than it's tried---especially when the source of conflict is a stepfamily issue.

My point is that even staffers who work at the less bad programs or even programs that are good on a voluntary basis or for true involuntary commitment needs---those staffers know full well that there are problem schools in the industry that are genuinely traumatizing kids.

This school, being in a third world country, is automatically suspect.

"No hot water" cannot be legitimately shrugged off as "that's just how it is in that part of the world."  The fact is, there's no good reason for the kid to *be* in that part of the world.  The kid's an American.  The kid does not voluntarily agree to be out of the United States and in a third world country instead.  There are a bazillion and a half TBS's of every type and description in the United States.  It's not as if the US was a dinky little country.

Parents have no right to ship US citizen kids off to someplace out of the country.  Move with their kids to another country, where the kid's under 14, sure.  Ship the kid out of country, no.  That's just not right.

Hot water *is* a legitimate issue, because the kid shouldn't have been shuffled out to a third world country in the first place, and sticking her in a third world country without her being given the opportunity to refuse to go or the opportunity to insist on repatriation from the US consulate, was flat out illegal in the first place.

That the parents didn't have the law enforced against them and neither did the school doesn't make it right.  Forcing American teens out of the country is *illegal*.

Craig and ALA are so big on the Bible and Authority?  Craig an ALA are a bunch of damned (literally, not profanely) hypocrites---the Bible says that Christians are supposed to obey the laws of the land.  When Craig and ALA break the law to take these kids to a third world country and keep them there without them being able to demand repatriation, they're breaking the law.  When they turn around and tell these kids to obey legitimate authority, they're just saying the old, "Do as I say and not as I do."

If you're a kid and your mom tells you not to drink, and you go have a beer and don't get caught, you did wrong whether your mom enforces that rule and catches you and punished you or not.  You broke the rule, you did wrong.

If you're a mom or a school owner/staffer and your  government tells you 14 year olds have the right to refuse to leave the country and the right to be repatriated against their parents' will, and you keep take them out of the country anyway, and you don't give them the opportunity to tell the consular staff they want repatriation, and you don't inform them of their right to request repatriation regardless of what their parents want, then YOU DO WRONG.  Regardless of whether you have the ambassador wrapped around your little finger or not.

If you know the ambassador is breaking the law by not repatriating them, and they request repatriation and *YOU* don't send them home, then just like that teenager drinking a beer when mom said don't drink *YOU DO WRONG*.

You're not obeying the laws of the land, and in doing so you're telling the kids that as long as you're powerful enough or sneaky enough to get away with rebelling against authority, rebelling against legitimate authority is A-OK.

You're demonstrating to the kids that breaking the rules is only wrong if you get caught.

Do as I say, not as I do.

Damned (literally) hypocrites.

At least, according to the Christian religion you are.

If you're not worried enough about that to quit doing it, then deep down, you aren't really Christians.  You're just non-believers going through the motions, and lying to yourself that you really believe because it makes you feel holier than everybody else.

But you aren't.  Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2004, 04:51:00 PM »
Timoclea
Can you give the statue that says what all you say here? About the legalities, I mean. Where can a person find that in print? Nothing in the starte department's statement, on out of country programs, mentions any of this, except it dose say: "In extreme emergency situations, they may also request repatriation assistance from the U.S. Government without parental consent."
I'll post it entire at the end here.

Ginger
said *respectful* conversation might go farther, faster. I Know if kids are being mistreated Craig is unaware of it. I Know he would never tolerate that. However, nobody is able to listen well when being called names or falsely accused now, are they?

So much that takes place on Fornits seriously degrades its quality and usefulness.

Speaking of which. . .

Jeffery
Not that you deserve notice, but I do wonder, did I really say something to upset you that much; or did Ginger call in the special forces to scare away the Christians?

 http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html
 
U.S. Department of State
Washington, D.C.
FACT SHEET
BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION FACILITIES


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In almost every region of the world, there are facilities for the treatment of minor children with drug/alcohol and/or discipline problems. These private and state-owned overseas treatment centers can often be characterized as ?Behavior Modification Facilities.? Parents/guardians enroll their minor children in these facilities in the hope they will improve their problematic behavior.

Some facilities request parents/guardians to sign a contract for their minor child?s treatment authorizing its staff to act as their agents. These contracts purport to give staff very broad authority to take any actions deemed necessary, in the staff?s judgment, for the health, welfare and progress in the child?s program. The facilities can be located in relatively remote areas, restrict the minor child?s contact with the outside world, and employ a system of graduated levels of earned privileges and punishments to stimulate behavior change. The minor child?s communication privileges may also be limited.

The Department of State has no authority to regulate these entities, whether they are private or state-owned, and does not maintain information about their corporate or legal structures or their relationships to each other or to organizations in the United States. The host country where the facility is located is solely responsible for compliance with any local safety, health, sanitation, and educational laws and regulations, including all licensing requirements of the staff in that country. These standards may not be strictly enforced or meet the standards of similar facilities in the United States. The Department of State has, at various times, received complaints about nutrition, housing, education, health issues, and methods of punishment used at some facilities.

Prior to enrolling their minor children in such overseas ?Behavior Modification Facilities,? the Department of State strongly recommends parents/guardians visit the facility and thoroughly inform themselves about both the facility and the host country?s rules governing it and its employees. The Department of State also encourages parents/guardians and facility administrators to ensure that all U.S. citizen enrollees are registered with the nearest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in case emergency consular services are needed.

U.S. consular officials are not qualified to determine whether the programs offered by the facilities are of therapeutic benefit to the enrollees. When aware of such facilities, U.S. consular officials conduct periodic facility visits, sometimes accompanied by host country officials, to monitor the general welfare of the U.S. citizen enrollees. Inquiries into the welfare and whereabouts of U.S. citizen enrollees may be initiated by contacting the closest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in the host country or the Department of State?s Overseas Citizens Services (OCS) office at the below telephone number. Also, parents may contact the closest U.S. Embassy/Consulate in the host country to inquire about the facility or speak to the Department of State?s Bureau of Consular Affairs? OCS Specialist for that country (Tel.: 202-647-5226 or, for after hours emergencies, 202-647-5225).

The Federal Privacy Act protects U.S. citizens, including minor children, from the unauthorized disclosure of information that the U.S. Government has collected and maintained about them unless the U.S. citizen has consented in writing to the release of the information or one of the Privacy Act?s ?conditions of disclosure? permits the U.S. Government to release the otherwise protected information.

While parents/guardians may at times act in loco parentis for their minor children and obtain information that is otherwise protected by the Privacy Act, it must also be noted that minor children?s explicit wishes must be respected. Thus, a U.S. consular officer who has been advised by a minor child that s/he does not want any information released to an inquiring parent/guardian should honor those wishes absent the presence of circumstances affecting the health or safety of the minor child (i.e., one of the ?conditions of disclosure?). Parents/guardians should be aware that U.S. citizens 14 years of age and older have the right to apply for a passport without their parents?/guardian?s permission. In extreme emergency situations, they may also request repatriation assistance from the U.S. Government without parental consent.

January 2004

Return to Consular

http://travel.state.gov/behavior_modification.html
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2004, 06:47:00 PM »
Timoclea, I agree with you 99%...

Quote
On 2004-08-21 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

You're demonstrating to the kids that breaking the rules is only wrong if you get caught.


No, it's not about getting caught or not. God knows, if you'll pardon the expression, that these folks are well vindicated by much of officialdome. Hell, how can they be wrong when the career Büsh supporting Ambassador to Italy used to run a program just like these, right? Why, drugs-r-bad, m'khay? Cops know what they're doing, judges order juveniles to these places, CYS checks on them from time to time and, except for the occasional civil suit or Program closing, all of these damned professionals give them a free pass.

It's not like they really keep much secret. The evidence isn't really that hard to get, just that the people who should be looking for it really don't think it's a priority.

No, it's not about avoiding getting caught that makes the difference between right and wrong under this dychotomy. It's about the end justifying the means. They seem to believe, quite litterally, that they have been instructed by God himself to do these horrible things to other people's children in order to save their eternal souls.

Just like Jim Jones (who started out trying to rehabilitate street junkies)

Just like Chuck Dederich, founder of Synanon "Church".

Just like Hitler, who sold the people (and, likely, himself) on the idea that he was the savior or the ancient Germanic tribes.

Just like Stalin and Castro and every other fanatic idealog down through the ages.

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein



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