Timmy , Val, Chris and Todd

[RTP2003]

On 2004-03-26 08:11:00, Carmel wrote:

"Oh, and by the way guys...I hate to break it to you but hate, anger, and desire for revenge are unfortunately not selective emotions.  If you live your life incorporating these feelings toward Straight...it will only seep out into every other aspect of your emotional spectrum.  Soon, everything you encounter is met by an attitude tainted with anger and hate.  Thats just the way it goes.

Is that your professional opinion, Doctor?

Its easy to hate poeple and feel cheated...its harder to forgive what was done to you...and make room for healing and progress.  I hate what was done to me...it makes me angry...but I would be the first person to test the waters of forgiveness if I were to meet up with one of my tormentors.

You poor sappy fool.  Do you really feel that you are so worthless that the people who tormented you should just be let off and forgiven? If someone treated my neighbor's worthless dog like Staff treated kids in Straight I wouldn't forgive them--much less for treating ME that way.

 Blaming people and and Straight is just an excuse to cover up flaws that you are afraid to try and fix, for fear that you might fail.

Is this advice free, Doctor, or do you need to see my HMO card?

 

People view forgiveness as a weakness, when its truly the harder of the two choices to make.

Forgiveness is only an option if the abuser in question has made a sincere effort to make up for what they did.  Bradbury is a good example of a Staff member who I could forgive.  Why?  Because he has demonstrated a great degree of remorse and regret for being on Staff and has made the effort to make up for it.

Once the hate and anger is gone and they have forgiven...they are terrified of having to step up and fill that void with something positive instead....which they may not feel they know how to do.

Jeez, can you quit with the pop-psychology for five minutes?

I would feel so defeated if I ever allowed something that happened to me to rule over my life forever and make me bitter.

It doesn't rule my life, but last time I checked, this was a forum for Straight, Inc. Survivors.  I just keep to the subject at hand.  We were seriously wronged by the perpetrators of that place, and I want to see justice.  If that means I am bitter, so be it.

[Carmel]

Sorry Tard...but I just dont see how its possible...being powerless over something most CERTAINLY doesnt give you the ability to make ANY decision about it.  Good or bad.  Its a Catch 22.  Taking the initiative to "let go of something" is exerting power over it, one way or another.  

I dont mind that you are a Troll....people should take more advantge in explaining why your insanity is just that, insanity...might help inform a few lurkers on the outside. Rather than telling you what a Fucktard you are.
http://www.tarddance.com

[The Butcher]

RTP2000 has the right attitude.

I think it'll be the trusty old cleaver today. :grin:

[Dr Fucktard]

being powerless over something most CERTAINLY doesnt give you the ability to make ANY decision about it. Good or bad. Its a Catch 22. Taking the initiative to "let go of something" is exerting power over it, one way or another.

Oh you poor misguided, stubborn girl. You're never going to progress with that attitude.

Look, it's as simple as this. First, you admit that the urge was there. The urge to rage, whatever. You're only human, right? THEN, you can go ahead and apply your 2nd step - which is where the initiative comes into play. Please take an open mind. I want to see you home in two weeks.

[Carmel]

Im not trying to be anyone's therapist...but its just in human nature that if you wrong someone and they are benevolent in return...you feel twice as bad about having wronged them...than if you meet with anger and aggression.  That only makes you defensive.  

I just feel like taking the road of forgiveness gets alot more accomplished...hate and anger only breeds more hate and anger.  There isnt resolution...and once revenge is exacted....whats left?  Revenge is never as sweet afterwards as it seems to be before it is carried out.  Revenge is narrow-minded.  

Making a difference starts with all of as individuals...not how many Frags we get like in QUAKE.  Even if its how we act and function on a daily basis...it makes a difference....if we dont start with ourselves first and just head straight for the glory and heroics...we will just end up the same sorry saps we started out as.

Revenge does not equal resolution...the hate and anger doesnt get magically taken away once our tormentors are held accountable.  It becomes bitterness and sucks the REST of our life away.

[The Butcher]

taking the road of forgiveness gets alot more accomplished...hate and anger only breeds more hate and anger. There isnt resolution...and once revenge is exacted....whats left? Revenge is never as sweet afterwards as it seems to be before it is carried out. Revenge is narrow-minded.

Au contraire, Carmel. I doubt that you speak from experience.

Revenge does not equal resolution...the hate and anger doesnt get magically taken away once our tormentors are held accountable. It becomes bitterness and sucks the REST of our life away.

You sap. Have you ever felt the pleasure of hacking someone to death with a cleaver? Or squeezing someone's neck until they turn blue and their eyes bulge out of their head? Or feeling the bones in someone's face break as you connect with a solid punch? There is nothing so spiritually gratifying. It's better to regret something you HAVE done than something that you haven't done...

[Carmel]

No sir, I have not experienced that....

I have however experienced having my little girls head bashed in during an automobile accident caused by some jackass not paying attention on the road.  

I know that no amount of hate anger or revenge will ever make me feel whole again...will ever bring my daughter back to me.  I could kill the whole world and I would be left with nothing but a pile of corpses and more feelings of loss.  Thats how I know that revenge is futile.  Dont talk to me about getting even.  There is no even.  Whats gone is gone, what is done is done...and if you cannot see past what you have lost then you might as well have a fucking seat.  

Shooting a staff member in the face wont give me my life back, wont help with my anxiety attacks or my paranoia, it wont add a year onto my life at the end in repayment for the one that was taken from me by the Program.  The only thing I can control is me....so I am gonna keep doing that...because backpedaling is nothing but sure failure.

[The Butcher]

Shooting a staff member in the face wont give me my life back

I don't prefer to use guns either. ::bangin::

[Cayo Hueso]

Carmel, I understand where your heart is and I agree with some of what you're saying.  I'm sorry for your loss, that's more than I can ever imagine having to deal with.  For me, this has been a place where it's been OK to deal with the anger I have.  I cannot, no matter how hard I try, just 'let it go'.  I apparently need to go through whatever process this is in dealing with what happened.  Apparently again, venting some of this anger has been helpful.  The more steam I let off, the better I feel.  I dont' believe anyone is serious about killing ex-staff (I don't think you believe that either).  It's just blowing off a lot of rage that has been repressed for years upon years upon years.  Maybe that's HOW we can get ourselves to a level where we deal with this a little better.  The anger doesn't rule my life.  It doesn't even really exist outside of these forums.  THIS is where people understand it...THIS is where I feel like it's OK to deal with it.  

Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty

[Antigen]

Carmel, you're assuming way too much.

Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
--Anonymous

[ehm]

On 2004-03-25 11:18:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"I think all former Straight Staff  should either start fighting the good fight, as shown by the honorable Mr. Bradbury, or take a page from the samurai handbook and commit ritual suicide.  To me, those are the only ways they can make up for the heinous actions they performed willingly, for pay.
"

The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects.
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.


Diogenis Laertius in his 1st book "Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers"

(1) Of all things that are, the most ancient is God, for he is uncreated.
(2) The most beautiful is Cosmos, because it is God's action.
(3) The larger is space, because it holds all things.
(4) The swiftest is mind, because it speeds everywhere
(5) The strongest is the necessity, for it matters all
(6) The wisest is the time, because he brings everything to light.
(7) The things you offer to your parents you must wait to get from your chills
( There is no difference between life and death
(9) Know thyself
(10) Someone asked him which is older, day or night and he replied "Night is the older by one day"
(11) Someone asked him who is the happiest man and he replied "The one who has healthy body, resourceful mind and a docile nature.

______________________________________________

Frequent or excessive anger is not useful; in fact it is likely to have a negative effect on your health, to spoil your relationships with others and to limit your life experiences and ability to achieve happiness. Here is a guide which asks if you have any of the following symptoms of excessive unhealthy anger:

- A pattern of repeating the same angry words or deeds in particular situations.
- An inclination to shout at people or to use violent words
- A tendency to brood or fantasize about angry scenes with people
- An inability to deal with difficult situations without becoming angry
- A temptation or recourse to violence, possibly resulting in trouble with the law
- A reliance on getting angry to make you feel better
- Substituting getting angry about a problem for solving or learning to live with that problem
- Anger-linked health problems such as hypertension or digestive trouble
- Being recognized as an angry person and so teased, appeased or feared by others
- Having a strong prejudice against strangers because of their race, gender, views etc.
- Avoiding situations because you fear your temper.

________________________________________________


If you want to view Ray Bradbury as a hero, that?s your prerogative, but don?t place such expectations on all the victims of Straight who want to move on with their lives, heal from their wounds, and love and be happy with the families they have today. The way you guys are going about it, you won't be getting justice, just a wasted life. It just seems futile. Nothing can bring back those wasted years. No amount of punishment, or legal compensation can give you back your childhood, or your 20s and 30s either. It?s gone, move the hell on, or perish in your own resentment and discord. Waiting to watch them burn is never going to get you anywhere, except OLDER.

[Carmel]

I agree with you Cayo....absolutely.  Everyone is entitled to be angry, as well as process what was done to them in whatever way they can best handle.  

The part I have a problem with is the attacking of each other.  We are all here to vent and understand one another...more or less, and the cruel attacks just really bother me because I dont care who you are or what part you played in this fiasco called Straight...if you have found this site, you are looking to do the right thing...ex-staff or no.  Straights foundation was based on cruelty, and I wont have any part of it.  

Cesare Vennegoni just recently logged in to this site, he was a staff member when I was in.  I hated him to no end, he was cruel, he was mean, he was obsessed with the program.  He was particulary awful to me and was the main reason I decided to put my life on the line and run away from that place and into god knows what on the streets.  Now he is just a person trying to be whatever it is that he can, as best he can, I think.  I spoke briefly with him, explained why I felt the way I did about him, and I felt better.  I didnt have to attack him to get past it.  Now, everyone is different....but I know that in the past would have been more confrontational and problably have gotten poorer results...so if I cant speak for others...I can certainly compare my experience with both tactics and share it with others.  

Cayo...I am sorry I have not responded more to your postings and explainations of your feelings...they are all very valid to me and make alot of sense.  I am not trying to call anyone out or put anyone down...I just want to present a different option to those kind of feelings that may be helpful....ultimately, it has nothing to do with supporting staff or the program or whatever...it has to do with personal healing.  At least in my perspective.

[Cayo Hueso]

I don't have a problem with any of that.  As I said, I can agree with much of what you say, however....as in real life...we all end up paying the consequences for our actions.  Anyone on staff that comes here may very well be remorseful, but they're just going to have to develop a thicker skin until it calms down.  You and I have been around here for a while adn have seen the ups and downs of the boards.  Most of the people who are really angry right now have just found these.  I can understand their rage.  It still comes up in me, but I guess I've gotten more used to dealing with it in the time that I"ve been here...they haven't had that chance yet.   That's all I'm trying to say.

If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb

[The Butcher]

Despite your prattling, pontificating, and all of your mental gymnastics, you haven't convinced me that "moving on" is the solution to anything.

You do it your way, we'll do it our way. Fair enough? Now shut up, turn your other cheek, and go back to church...

[Carmel]

Sorry Ginger...I truly wasnt trying to assume anything.  I thought it would be a useful point on how I feel about anger and revenge.  I just dont think it gets anyone anywhere.  Not that it isnt a valid emotion...but whats the answer to resolving anger?  I dont believe it is revenge.  I would hate to see someone else make choices based on an unrealistic need for justice and come up wanting.  Thats all.  I dont think it has to be a road frought with pain all the way, not that  pain isnt an integral part of the journey though.

I think places still operating should be shut down, I think  all those still calling the shots should be held accountable.....but even if all of that were to happen, I would be no more or less healed by it.  I feel thats something I have to face on my own and from the bottom up not the top down.