My Parents

[GregFL]

WOW.

[Antigen]

I think (hope) my dad understood when he went on to bigger and better things that I forgave and fully understood the whole thing. But our dear friend, my childhood babysitter... hell, my common-law step-mother sometimes forgets. Before we left So. Florida, we had some time to kill between the final walk-through and the closing. So we decided to spend it visiting with her. We talked about everying; 30 years of friendship between our families and all that entails.

At the end, the conversation turned to the Program. Not sure, but I think she brought it up. But she got very agitated and, with tears welling in her eyes, asked me "Don't you know we had to do it, the Program saved your lives?" I've told her before that I understand. Told her about my buddy, Wes... and she certainly knows (or I thought she did) how I regard my father. But I've just had the hardest time making her understand that I fully understand and forgive it all just as much as she's long since forgiven me for a whole littany of mischeif and thoughtlesness over all the years she helped me grow up.

Make them understand that if you can; that they're only human, and among the best at that. That's the definition of growing up, I think; to take the best that our parents had to offer, leave out the mistakes and go on to improve on their work.

Tell your parents I certainly forgive them as well.

[marcwordsmith]

Wow. Freedom and Ginger, you guys are remarkable. I have to admit I never did forgive my parents. They just got into it so much; they just loved it, they just reveled in the whole Seed culture. Years later, I could never quite buy "We did what we thought we had to do. We were brainwashed too." Anyway, my stepdad has passed away, and I haven't talked with my mother in about nine years. That's not because of the Seed; it's about many many things, many problems and abusive behavior. Still, the Seed seems emblematic of it all in a way, and I'll never forget her victorious smirk. But maybe I will forgive it, because I know I have to, and as long as I don't, I'm still trapped. It's my heart that hurts when there's people I don't stop blaming. It doesn't mean I'll contact my mother; I probably won't ever again. But at least I can forgive her and wish her well, truly. She's suffered plenty too, I know. Thank you guys, for your sane and thoughtful words.

[GregFL]

Welcome to our forum, Mark. Where did you go to the seed and what year?
I myself didn't speak to my father from 16 to 20 and only recently got to where we are somewhat on the same page, but he still justifies it.  My mother cries when we talk about it.
You still haven't spoke to your mom?  Unreal. Do you blame the program, or is it a combination of things. I hope that you can work it out with her on some level, and once again, welcome. Tell us a little about yourself..

[GregFL]

ok, I reread your post, and I think I understand what you were saying about your mom.  I felt similar  about my father for a long time. He angered me in so many ways and his attitude about the seed and the callous way he would say he saved my life and shit just really to me represented everything wrong with him. I have since got him to admit that the Seed was weird and  a bad thing to do to a 14 year old, but then up comes the "you needed help" bullshit. I look at my kids and wonder how in the hell they could have done that to me and my sister. My daughter is only 1.5 years younger than I was, and she is a baby, my son is 19 and I would never have done it to him. Yet, my father not only did it, he seemed to revel in it, to celebrate the torture we were enduring, and then for years later just dismiss my efforts to heal as druggie or counterculture behavior.

[GregFL]

now i reread it again and figured out who you are. oops.  Sorry, and how you been?
I hadn't seen your name strung together like that before.  Im a dumbshit.

[marcwordsmith]

Hi Greg. You know me; I first posted under "The Seed Sucks" thread, but for some reason, even though I did sign in under "Marcwordsmith", I was assigned the name "Anonymous" at that time. Anyway, just to clarify: My problems with my mother go much much deeper than the Seed. They both pre-date and post-date the Seed. For the record, my sister does not have any contact with our mother either. And speaking of my sister, she's one of the few people who actually escaped the Seed and made it stick. She was only 16 (I was 14) and she got away, and she was hitchhiking, and somebody picked her up and heard her story and kindly took her to a girls' halfway house in Perrine called Genesis House, where my sister wound up living until she was 18. Genesis House was a humane place.
Hey here's a trivia question. Who said this? "There will be those  who hate you. But those who hate you do not win, unless you hate them back. Then you destroy yourself." Who spoke those words of wisdom?

[marcwordsmith]

Greg you are most definitely NOT a "dumbshit." That's mean. Don't call yourself names, buddy. You're not in the Seed anymore.

[GregFL]

Yeah, I figured out it was you in between posts.  Sorry about your situation with your family.  
I can't place that quote and I give up, tell me.
guesses-churchill
        Hitler
        Lincoln
        Oprah
        Libby
IGIVEUP

[marcwordsmith]

Greg, I'll give you a clue. This person was a major national public figure at the time you and I were in the Seed. For what it's worth, I believe his words were sincere, though reasonable minds may disagree. And I think he was speaking to and about himself as much as to anyone else.

[Somejoker]

Richard Nixon?

[marcwordsmith]

Yup! You got it, Somejoker! It was Nixon. Kind of poignant coming from him, isn't it? Or ironic, depending on how you look at it, I guess.

[GregFL]

me again. Good thing for your sister to get away.  I wanted to so bad, but I was forteen and terrified about running away at night, which was the only opportunity I may of had, and then my oldcomer lived in some trashy part of Largo in a bad neighborhod, and his parents would padlock us in the room from the outside. Also, he had a dobie under the window, and it was made clear to me that he would "tear me up" if I went out the window.
Plus, they would tell you if you ran, the police would bring you back, then you would be court ordered back in and have to stay as long as they wanted you to. Suzy Connors used to scare the shit out of me the smug way she would say that, and I could look around me and see examples of it everywhere. it was not an empty threat, at least in St Pete.
I remember one day being in the back of a pickup truck, about 5 newcomers sitting flat on the bed,and 4 oldcomers, all sitting up on the higher wheel wells. We came to the corner near tyrone and the driver, a father, stopped at a traffic light. We weren't allowed to even look out of the truck at anything, but I almost sprang out of the truck, and then chickened out. Later, as an oldomer, I helped catch and return two or three escapees. This was nothing short of kidnapping, but it was condoned by the Seed, our parents, the police, and the courts.
Part of the culture of the Seed was to make you an integral part of the madness, of the corruptness and meaness they heaped on you,to give it back to others.
Have you told your sister about this forum? if not, tell her to check us out and post her escape story. Those are some of the most appreciated stories floating around these message boards.

[Antigen]

Hey there Marc,
Thanks for putting it just so. I've finally started to come to terms with the fact that that's pretty much the way my family is, except for my father, who passed on a few years ago.

He and I always got along just fine. So, he cussed a lot. Some dads are like that. I was a wise assed kid, some kids are like that. It all ballanced out. Even when I was in the program, though he damned sure made me stay in and even tried to have me falsely arrested one time when I'd split, he never enjoyed it.

No, long before the Program, he used to refer to the six of us alternately as a pit of vipers, a pack of savages or goddamned kids (that last sometimes with a smirk and obvious pride if, for example, I'd just insulted some stoooopid school administrator type, who was being petty to begin with and I'd done it in just such a way as he and I were the only ones who understood exactly what I'd said)

All these years I thought it was my having split the program that made them treat me as they do. Know what? Dad was right. The whole damned family IS a pit of vipers. They were before the Program and nothing changed excpt that they got some legitimacy from the Program.

[Anonymous]

Didn't mean to post anoymously, I must have forgotten my password. My name is Thom McNulty, I am Ginger's Brother. One of the vipers.

This is my 4th attempt to post here. The system seems to find ways to block me.  I have learned to save my work every once in a while, and the following is my latest attempt. Maybe this one will get through.

Hi Ginger and all,
   Viper4 here. From Ginger's posting, one could conclude that the viper gene ran out right before she was born (the youngest of six)
  A slight correction:
The expression Dad often used was actually  "pack of God-damned savages". One of the many colorful expressions he shared with us. One of my favorite tyrades went something like:
 
 JUMPING JESUS GOD DAMNED CHRIST ALL...
(some siblings, aka vipers, insert 'MOTHER FUCKING' here...I don't recall that personally. Besides, I don't use language like that:) ...MIGHTY"
   I miss him too. He was my hero. Sure, he had his faults, but I'm convinced that he and (may I mention the name Mom here) did the best they could raising us with the the limited training they had in parenting. Both came from alcoholic homes where emotionaland spiritual growth and maturity were not modeled. You can't give away what you don't have.
   My experience as a 'Seedling' was a bit different from most of those I've seen shared here. I attended meetings off and on from about '72-'76, and was there voluntarily.
   I kind of drifted away after deciding that they were wrong about alcohol being a drug. Maybe it was a drug for most of them, but I was 'different'. I remember stopping at the 7-11 on US-1 just south of the New River Tunnel and celebrating my uniqueness with a 16 ounce Bud. This occasion marked the beginning of my drift away from my friends at The Seed. After all, I was 'different' from them.
   Another way of looking at my gradual withdrawl from Seedling status was that I now had a secret. Something I would not have felt comfortable sharing with anyone there.
   Over the next 15 or so years, I got REAL 'different'. I pissed away lots of money and 2 marriages and contemplated suicide largely, but not entirely, as a result of my drinking, drugging, and gambling (another drug for me, at least).
   When I came up for air in '91, it was in a 12 step program. Those steps were still alive and well when I was on my last legs. The valuable tools which were generously shared with (pounded into) me during my years at The Seed would finally begin to be put to use to start building a life based on personal accountability, that is, taking responsibility for my own actions, aka, growing up.
   I figured out where I got confused. I mis-interpreted step 11 (look it up) to say:
 
"SOUGHT THROUGH BEER AND MEDICATION TO REMOVE A CONSCIOUS CONTACT WITH GOD..."
 
I worked this step thoroughly.
 
  Anyway, to make a long story short, life is good today. Finally got a handle on the real step 11, and by God's grace, I have enjoyed over 10 years of freedom from all that crap. He has relieved me of the obsessions to self destruct with drinking, drugging, gambling, smoking, and equally as important, my former tendancy to blame others for my lack of living skills and for my spiritual and emotional condition.
   I'm glad this forum is available! It's good to have a place to express this stuff.
   I remember when Ginger told me about her site, Anonymity Anonymous, (then called Anonymous Anonymous, I think) and asked for feedback I told her I thought it was a good idea, and that it might be therapeutic for her to have a place to vent her anger. That pissed her off. She angrily denied having an anger problem. Hey, she asked! Anyway, I'm glad she has found some friends to validate her stuff. Sorry your experiences with 'treatment' were not positive ones.
Peace to all, Thom McNulty, Viper4