Author Topic: Where did "the game" come from ?  (Read 12192 times)

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Offline heretik

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Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2011, 11:53:31 AM »
Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"
Yeah, and having now red most all the links an stuff, I realize it's a bit of a simplification to just call it AA>Dederiech>LSD>Synanon>$tr8.  Seems like Synanon was really a big deal though, I think Chuck D was a synthesizing agent.  God of the Game.  

One a those links said Dederiech was influenced by Skinner.  I don't know much about Skinner...I heard he kept his daughter in a box.

Was Casreil influencing in his meeting with Chuck during the early 60's. I know Chuck D. started his interpretation of the "Game" in the late 50's while associated with AA but as you say was it, "synthesized" during his collaborations with Casreil.
Have not been able to gather any real information that informs us about there discussions concerning confrontational attack therapy.
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Offline starry-eyed pirate

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Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2011, 12:38:40 PM »
I'm not sure about Casriel, I'd have to go back an check on that, but when I said Dedereich synthesized the Game, I meant he was the perfect conductor to channel the game.  He was a unique individual.  Intense, intelligent, charismatic, searching and manipulative.  His personality animated the Game and made it into something powerful.  My understanding is that whatever influences were on Chuck he's the one who made the Game the powerful tool that it became.

Sorry if that doesn't answer your question Heretik.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2011, 01:10:07 PM »
heretik wrote:

"Have not been able to gather any real information that informs us about there discussions concerning confrontational attack therapy"

That would be very interesting.  It seems like the Game would've been in full swing by the time Casriel went out there to check it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline heretik

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Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2011, 01:17:52 PM »
Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"
I'm not sure about Casriel, I'd have to go back an check on that, but when I said Dedereich synthesized the Game, I meant he was the perfect conductor to channel the game.  He was a unique individual.  Intense, intelligent, charismatic, searching and manipulative.  His personality animated the Game and made it into something powerful.  My understanding is that whatever influences were on Chuck he's the one who made the Game the powerful tool that it became.

Sorry if that doesn't answer your question Heretik.

You actually did. I went back myself an re-read posts on Chuck D. and his personality. Your assessment of him is right on. Thanks.  
I keep mentioning Casreil because of his interest in Synanaon and his subsequent involvement in Daytop. Inculcated has posts over on the Daytop Forum that goes into far more detail on Casreil and his exploits into Primal Scream Groups, Encounter Groups ect.....Encounter groups were used in Daytop, Elan and  Marathon House they were a product of evolution possibly from Chuck D's "Game" and Casreil professional studies. (he is a Dr.) this is not to say it goes further then what I'm saying here. I believe Awake has tried to tie this along a linear path. I am trying to understand it all, if that is possible for someone like me.
Anyway thanks for your conversation and insights.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 08:25:32 PM by heretik »

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2011, 10:06:02 AM »
Yes, well, thankyou heretik, and everyone else who contributed to the thread.  My understanding is enriched.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline Ursus

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GAME - noun \?g?m\
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2011, 10:28:36 AM »
Definition from the folks at Merriam-Webster:


    1game noun ?g?m

    Definition of GAME

    • a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : PLAY (2) : the equipment for a game
      b : often derisive or mocking jesting : FUN, SPORT <make game of a nervous player>
      [li]a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : TACTIC
      b : an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : RACKET
    • a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other (2) : a division of a larger contest (3) : the number of points necessary to win (4) : points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest (5) : the manner of playing in a contest (6) : the set of rules governing a game (7) : a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game>
      b plural : organized athletics
      c (1) : a field of gainful activity : LINE <the newspaper game> (2) : any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics>; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game> (3) : area of expertise : SPECIALTY 3 <comedy is not my game>
    • a (1) : animals under pursuit or taken in hunting; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food (2) : the flesh of game animals
      b archaic : PLUCK
      c : a target or object especially of ridicule or attack —often used in the phrase fair game
      game·like adjective
    [/li][/list]
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    Offline Awake

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #51 on: January 15, 2011, 04:03:25 PM »
    I have put a response over on Casriel’s thread in response to the conversation here. Maybe it will help, although it is pretty hard to find a solid history on the guy so it is a bit speculative. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45 .

    … btw I may have missed something, but did I ever reveal my gender on here? I can’t remember doing that. ….

    .
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline Ursus

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #52 on: January 15, 2011, 07:06:49 PM »
    Quote from: "Awake"
    I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.

    ...

    GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

    ‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’

    ‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’

    ‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’

    ...

    Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from.  As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
    Whether or not Charles Dederich participated in the actual "gaming exercises" at RAND, chances are, he was probably aware of them. After all, he was employed by Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica at the time. RAND was set up in Santa Monica right after WWII by the U.S. Air Force ...  under contract to and, for all I know, located in the same building as, the Douglas Aircraft Company.
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    Offline heretik

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #53 on: January 15, 2011, 08:30:14 PM »
    Quote from: "Awake"
    I have put a response over on Casriel’s thread in response to the conversation here. Maybe it will help, although it is pretty hard to find a solid history on the guy so it is a bit speculative. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45 .

    … btw I may have missed something, but did I ever reveal my gender on here? I can’t remember doing that. ….


    .

    Awake,
    My mistake, Faux pas or a Freudian slip either way it was uncalled for.
    Please accept my apologies.
    heretik

    P.S. I corrected the mistake. It was edited.
    « Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 09:46:53 PM by heretik »

    Offline starry-eyed pirate

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #54 on: January 15, 2011, 09:27:23 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Awake"
    I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.

    ...

    GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

    ‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’

    ‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’

    ‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’

    ...

    Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from.  As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
    Whether or not Charles Dederich participated in the actual "gaming exercises" at RAND, chances are, he was probably aware of them. After all, he was employed by Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica at the time. RAND was set up in Santa Monica right after WWII by the U.S. Air Force ...  under contract to and, for all I know, located in the same building as, the Douglas Aircraft Company.

    Yeah, I respect the research, but don't really get it.  I have an intuitional sense that I don' think really compares...There's a manipulation that comes out a Dederich that fucks everyone after him, even though he's right and has insight.  You can't rely on anyone other than your clan. And even then you have to watch out.  Fuck $tr8.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

    Offline starry-eyed pirate

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #55 on: January 15, 2011, 09:34:17 PM »
    And, Yeah, What !? He was employed by who...??  Holy California!
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

    Offline starry-eyed pirate

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #56 on: January 15, 2011, 10:01:11 PM »
    Either way...this way or that....
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

    Offline seamus

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #57 on: January 15, 2011, 10:44:23 PM »
    to me its maybe not so important to understand the finer points of the synanon evolution into straight. It is important to know that the whole goddamn thing ,stinks to high heaven. mk ultra ,styanon, the seed ,str8> all like rotten fish.
       Also I find it extermely upsetting to know that while a shitload of us were sweating it out on front row,sitting in that goddamn morgan yacht, right across tha bat,in tampa BCCI was laudering a shit load of $ to keep the Iran/contra thing afloat.The ties to the  Reagan/ Bush/ Bush administations were un-deniable. The whole war on drugs was a sham. I mean w's GRANDFATHERs bank did big business with the Nazis,so how far from the tree do  you think that apple fell? Union something bank, I believe was the name of it, I think in conn.
       So in my mind hers how it really went. Make $ by enabling others to bring god knows what into the country, profit hugely from it,than appear to support an anti drug agenda, meanwhile try to gain the support of a cadre of brainwashed fucks ,the bastard stepchildren of mk ultra gone sideways. Im not done lookin at this bs yet either.
     Talkin like this will probably get me killed someday. I dont give a shit. My way of thinkin is that we are just more collateral damage of a government gone mad. No different than ever it was, Even though people like newton,peterman,ross,barker and deidrich were all petty nazis..they too were used simply for thier zealotry...and could be easly cast aside or made to fall from grace,be discredited or fall on thier own swords. Once I began to understand ,It became clear to me that this cherade had ,been twofld,to break wills,while keeping up the mask of propriety, The rest has less importance.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

    Offline seamus

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #58 on: January 15, 2011, 11:01:40 PM »
    Jeez o pete, I usta poke fun at conspiracy theory types. Im just seein how really the lot of us were just getting used to prop up a criminal overclass who make  capone look like the cubscouts. WE as human beings have NO value to them <none>.
    Its all about control see?
       Keep you poppulation, doped up ,frightened,marginalized,sniping at each other, segments of it scapegoated, give em plenty of names to ridicule each other with, liberal, conservative, ultra this or that...gay straight druggie...or when all else fails call em terrorists,fanatics....make em all distrust each other.....then the idea of your populus ever making a unified stand, goes totally out the window...hey tell me Im wrong. :flame:
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

    Offline Awake

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    Re: Where did "the game" come from ?
    « Reply #59 on: January 17, 2011, 01:49:39 AM »
    I am truly only speculating that the origin OF THE NAME ‘the game’ comes from game theory, to be upfront, I don’t know enough about it in particular (Ursus may have more suggestive evidence of that). All I know is it represents an all too coincidental metaphor, the history works, and it seems to make a lot of sense that it was inspired by the concept. Second, I don’t think game theory is, by itself, is the most significant source in considering the creation of the format in which ‘the game’ is played.  (I think the most significant influence definitely comes from Kurt Lewin and Sensitivity Training (or T-Groups, or human relations training) and Group Dynamics.)

    However it just seems to coincidental that game theory is the study of what people do when they are pitted against each other in various circumstances  and it was important at the time in trying to predict the outcomes of war strategies. “The Game” as this small group pitted against each other in psychological warfare, and let’s just see who’s strategy wins… it just seems like more than a coincidence.  In a sense, it is less important to know where it came from that to call it for what it is, either way I see a useful answer here.


    I know ‘the game’ might have been different depending on which program you were in, but a related example about raps at Cedu is we had a ‘rap box’ and before raps everyone had to write the names of two people we had issues with and wanted to talk to. They would use the names in the box to arrange the raps. The game started before it even began, it was like a shooting gallery. You were already tense because everyone  knew  they were in there because they were on someone’s list, and the staff already knew who you “had issues” with who before they even knew what the issue was. It was just “hey you, you had to talk to her, what about?”. There was just no way to avoid playing.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »