The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Whooter]

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  

I am not believing one side or the other, Shady.  I am just stating the facts.  Look up the escort sites.  Look for various amber alerts.  Are any of these agencies being investigated for kidnapping.  I haven't been able to find even one.   How many reported kidnappings in the united states end up with the kid in a program?  Where are all the reports and arrests?  Being kidnapped is a fantasy statement for many on fornits.  If you were really being truthful you would state that they were escorted to the program and then expand on it like..... the escort service was harsh and handcuffed me and forced me into their car etc.  But you dont do that, you need to try to deceive the reader.  Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really kidnapped then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story.  How could they?  How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.

And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

again you do this.  Where did I dismiss all reports of abuse.  See this is what you believe so it makes it factual to you.  I never stated That I dismiss all reports of abuse.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

you need to try to deceive the reader

No, you need to try to deceive the reader.  You are liar of the first magnitude.  You made up your whole family and story.  Your "credibility is zero," not the others who post here.

Did you forget this?

I fabricated a son

Only a whacko would make up shit like that.  You're crazy, man.  Your whole life is a lie.

[Shadyacres]

Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.  Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

[Anne Bonney]

Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.

 :tup:   It's so tiresome.

 

Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief).  It's pretty much his profession to spin.

[Watchful Yeoman]

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.

[Whooter]

There are a few threads here dedicated to attacking me personally.  Cant we please keep the personal attacks in those threads?  I will try to get down there to respond in those sections is you like.

Back to the Topic:

I sense from the frustration level and argument that many here feel that the escort services should be renamed “Kidnapping Services”.  Maybe I would even agree with you, but we cant do that on our own and expect to communicate to people outside of fornits what happened to you.

If you stated that you were taken to a program by an escort service and then went on to explain how you were treated and how you felt you were kidnapped then this would get your point across just as effectively.  But to lie to people that you were kidnapped you run the risk of getting caught in that lie and then no one believing you.  If later on you state that you were abused in the program people would step back a little and say “This is the same person who lied about being kidnapped so how do we know he is telling the truth about being abused”?  

If the person redefines  kidnapping then maybe he/she is redefining abuse too.

Do you see what I mean?



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[Froderik]

same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit

^^ LIES ^^

[Anne Bonney]

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.

Oh absolutely.  But I believe his background even before he shipped his kid off (whatever the gender.....I can't keep track anymore) was in marketing, but probably wasn't too successful.  He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents.  They're easier marks.

[DannyB II]

Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.

Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.

[Shadyacres]

Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.

Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.

Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

[Whooter]

Anne allow me to use you as an example for a moment

A good example of a survivor embellishing is when Anne Bonney gets frustrated with a conversation she will start to make up lies about people and attack them.  This plays itself out over and over again here on fornits.  

So, if a survivor has a habit of doing this then would this same person make up lies about the program they were in if they hated it and were frustrated that they couldn't fight back.  I believe that if someone is willing to lie, embellish and exaggerate here on fornits against another poster then it is easy to conclude that she would lie about events in her program also.

Anne Bonney wrote about whooter a few posts back:

He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents. They're easier marks.

The above quote is just one of many lies that Anne continues to peddle.

Comparing this to the original topic.  "Why do survivors need to lie?"

Why does Anne Bonney need to lie about me here on this thread?  Because she is frustrated that I will not agree with her?  Why not come out and say why you are frustrated?  Is it because I lied also in a thread awhile back?  Because I am middle of the road to pro-program? or because I wont agree with you?



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[Anne Bonney]

I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.

[Whooter]

I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.

Yes, you stated the first sentence as a believe.  But not the second where I took the quote from (which supported the title of this thread).  Dont play the victim about being baited, anne.  You do it all day long, name calling is part of your M.O..  Anyway we can move on I wanted to make my point, which I did, but I dont want to create a flame war over this.



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[Whooter]

Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Shady, I am sorry I come across as you describe.  I do understand the abuse that many of you received.  But why would someone jeopardize themselves being believed by lying or embellishing their stories?  I have never understood that.

If someone like Shaggy can communicate what occurred to him effectively by just telling the truth why cant other people?  He didnt need to lie to get his point across and describe what happened to him.

Do some people feel telling the truth just isn't abusive enough or dramatic enough?  Does adding words like torture, Gulag and kidnapping attract more sympathy or gain more attention?  I think this is what I am looking to understand.  I heard answers like:  It feels like kidnapping to them,  or the law should be changed to call it kidnapping.  Which makes a little more sense but doesn't explain why they would jeopardize being caught lying for a little more drama.



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[DannyB II]

Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours. Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally. His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.