The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Ursus]

I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  

Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.

[Whooter]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

If a guy who was shot in a hunting accident feels he needs to tell everyone he was shot by a terrorist because "Hunting Accident" doesnt describe the way he truly felt when he was shot this would still be wrong and it would be lying.

Why not be truthful and tell everyone it was an escort Service and then describe how tough those guys are and how you felt being handcuffed was abusive?  Why lie about it is my question.



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[Anne Bonney]

Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Ursus, you forget that we're dealing with LGAT mentality here (this isn't an attack either.  It's an observation that I fully believe is true).  Of course disagreeing is considered attacking.  In the LGAT world, you just do NOT question what you're told to think!  Those of us who've been in programs know exactly what happens if you do.

[Whooter]

Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



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[Shadyacres]

Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



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This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

[Whooter]

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



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[Anne Bonney]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

[Watchful Yeoman]

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



...

Same as if you created a fake family in order to advance your agenda.  People, seriously, why do you humor the ultimate liar?

I fabricated a son

'Nuff said.  Nobody else here has ever been shown to be liar of this magnitude.  Not even  :shamrock: Li'l sidekick :shamrock: .

[Whooter]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

Why don't you "just be honest"?  You fabricated a whole family, man.  What's your need to lie?

[Anne Bonney]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

[Shadyacres]

Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



...

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

[Whooter]

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?  I think the answer is "yes" to this.

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.



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[Froderik]

Lying is what Whooter does best.

[Anne Bonney]

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.

I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?

Just because they refer to themselves as an 'escort service' that doesn't meant that's what they actually do.  Do they provide hookers to the kids?

 I think the answer is "yes" to this.

If you're going to answer your own questions, why ask them?

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.

This is why I hate getting into discussions with you.  Your stupid analogies that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and your talent for spin make me dizzy.