Kids in Program Credible?

[Shadyacres]

Sometimes it is the kids who broke the trust and the parents had no choice but to get the child help.
...

Help, that is a strange word for psychologically and emotionally crippling "behavior modification", also known as "coercive mind control" or "coercive thought reform".  Did you know that the U.N. has recognized this as a form of torture?  Did you know that this is one of the "cruel and unusual" punishments that our corrections institutions are not allowed to practice on convicts?  Do you think you can find a dictionary with that definition of 'help' in it?

I have to agree with you Shady.  I think it should be considered torture.  If a person tried to use crippling mind control on anyone I knew or cared about I would sue the place or try to shut it down.  But utilizing behavior modification is helpful.  Anyone who has ever raised a child uses these techniques 24 hours a day.  Many people here on fornits confuse techniques used in North Korea (to brainwash people) with those of a simple housewife applying behavior modification techniques to her child.  There are similarities but one is abusive and harmful while the other is not.

It is a common scare tactic that many posters here use to scare parents and at the same time to try to maintain a connection to the seed of the 1970's and North Korea.
..

Ya know, I also find it odd that these methods have remained with us into the twenty-first century.  The people who practice them seem to be able to bribe, corrupt and scare enough people to always stay in business SOMEWHERE.  Straight was a direct outgrowth of The Seed.  The program I was in, LIFE, was a direct outgrowth of Straight.  LIFE, in turn, spawned KHK and Growing Together.  Straight spawned Kids of NJ, Pathways, SAFE, and AARC.   I have watched video testimonials from recent “clients” of these places and I can tell you that THE SAME METHODS WERE USED ON THEM THAT WERE USED ON ME TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO!   From what I have seen from the video testimonies on YouTube, the WWASP and Aspen programs and CEDU clones are just as bad or worse.

[Whooter]

Well Whooter, there is no socially accepted definition of the point where mind control, thought reform, or ‘brainwashing’ crossed the line into what you call ‘crippling’ ‘abusive’ or ‘harmful’. So, in your opinion, what makes one program’s use of these techniques ‘good’ and another’s ‘bad’?

.

As long as the techniques are utilized in such a way as to increase a childs self esteem and they use positive feed back or reinforcement then I would say it is a safe model.  From a parents perspective this would be similar the methods used at home or the use of "Token economy" in any mild "Applied behavior program" (ABA) used within many of our public school systems.

If you take a look at the techniques used to brainwash or instill mind control on a person you will quickly realize that the methods do not lend themselves to increasing a persons self esteem or leading them towards being more independent.  These methods are very damaging to a person and any child subjected to these methods would not do well once they graduated and moved on to college or a world where they needed to compete in the job market.

I have noticed that many posters confuse these two vastly different methods.



...

[Awake]

Well Whooter, there is no socially accepted definition of the point where mind control, thought reform, or ‘brainwashing’ crossed the line into what you call ‘crippling’ ‘abusive’ or ‘harmful’. So, in your opinion, what makes one program’s use of these techniques ‘good’ and another’s ‘bad’?

.

As long as the techniques are utilized in such a way as to increase a childs self esteem and they use positive feed back or reinforcement then I would say it is a safe model.  From a parents perspective this would be similar the methods used at home or the use of "Token economy" in any mild "Applied behavior program" (ABA) used within many of our public school systems.

If you take a look at the techniques used to brainwash or instill mind control on a person you will quickly realize that the methods do not lend themselves to increasing a persons self esteem or leading them towards being more independent.  These methods are very damaging to a person and any child subjected to these methods would not do well once they graduated and moved on to college or a world where they needed to compete in the job market.

I have noticed that many posters confuse these two vastly different methods.



...

How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

[Whooter]

How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

From what little I have read on the subject I dont think that they can.  Do you think Behavior Modification is abusive?



...

[Awake]

Well Whooter, there is no socially accepted definition of the point where mind control, thought reform, or ‘brainwashing’ crossed the line into what you call ‘crippling’ ‘abusive’ or ‘harmful’. So, in your opinion, what makes one program’s use of these techniques ‘good’ and another’s ‘bad’?

.

As long as the techniques are utilized in such a way as to increase a childs self esteem and they use positive feed back or reinforcement then I would say it is a safe model.  


...

How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

From what little I have read on the subject I dont think that they can.  Do you think Behavior Modification is abusive?

I don’t understand. You just said that programs can be good if they use mind control or thought reform techniques to improve the teen’s self esteem. Did you mean to say something else?

[Whooter]

I don’t understand. You just said that programs can be good if they use mind control or thought reform techniques to improve the teen’s self esteem. Did you mean to say something else?

I read too quickly.  I thought you had listed Behavior Modification along with mind control and brain washing techniques.  Behavior Modification is okay to use in programs.



...

[Ursus]

How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

From what little I have read on the subject I dont think that they can.  Do you think Behavior Modification is abusive?

"Token economy" or ABA are learning/teaching methods which do not ask access into a child's heart and soul, and seek to reconstruct that very being.

What occurs in the programs discussed on fornits and others like them, as if you didn't already know, involves "psychological reconditioning." A very different cup of tea, given the invasiveness.

[Awake]

I don’t understand. You just said that programs can be good if they use mind control or thought reform techniques to improve the teen’s self esteem. Did you mean to say something else?

I read too quickly.  I thought you had listed Behavior Modification along with mind control and brain washing techniques.  Behavior Modification is okay to use in programs.

There’s no harm in admitting you’re confused. So in your opinion, where do you draw the line between what is an ethically acceptable use of forced behavior modification (on teenagers) and what is thought reform, and/ or mind control?

How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

From what little I have read on the subject I dont think that they can.  Do you think Behavior Modification is abusive?

"Token economy" or ABA are learning/teaching methods which do not ask access into a child's heart and soul, and seek to reconstruct that very being.

What occurs in the programs discussed on fornits and others like them, as if you didn't already know, involves "psychological reconditioning." A very different cup of tea, given the invasiveness.

Good point.

[Ursus]

Argh! Sorry. I quoted the wrong Whooter post. But... no matter. This is the one my previous post meant to address:

As long as the techniques are utilized in such a way as to increase a childs self esteem and they use positive feed back or reinforcement then I would say it is a safe model. From a parents perspective this would be similar the methods used at home or the use of "Token economy" in any mild "Applied behavior program" (ABA) used within many of our public school systems.

If you take a look at the techniques used to brainwash or instill mind control on a person you will quickly realize that the methods do not lend themselves to increasing a persons self esteem or leading them towards being more independent. These methods are very damaging to a person and any child subjected to these methods would not do well once they graduated and moved on to college or a world where they needed to compete in the job market.

I have noticed that many posters confuse these two vastly different methods.

So Whooter, although you can clearly see the difference between token economy based methods of teaching, and even ABA (generally used on autistics, though apparently the more intelligent and/or high functioning ones find it pretty brutal), from methods of "brainwashing" or "mind control," you fail to explain just how the methodologies that programs practice are anything at all similar to a "token economy" or even ABA.

IMO, they would seem to be more akin to "brainwashing" or "mind control" or, as noted in my previous post, "psychological reconditioning." That last was actually a term used to describe The Seed.

[Whooter]

There’s no harm in admitting you’re confused.

Of course not!  People should not feel bad for being confused or admitting to a mistake,  I think you may tend to be too hard on people, awake.  If you point out peoples mistakes too much they may tend to not want to open up or share their trust.   I was just reading too quickly and thought you had included Behavior Modification.

So in your opinion, where do you draw the line between what is an ethically acceptable use of forced behavior modification (on teenagers) and what is thought reform, and/ or mind control?

I am not trained in the area but I think the key is protecting and increasing  the self esteem and insuring that the child is building his/herself towards a point where they become self sufficient and independent.  The child should earn his way using a reward system or step system where the child works his/her way through, build confidence by succeeding in their challenges.  Incentives should be added like trips to the city, more freedoms in daily activities, special foods, social activities etc. similar to what parents use at home.



...

[Awake]

There’s no harm in admitting you’re confused.

Of course not!  People should not feel bad for being confused or admitting to a mistake,  I think you may tend to be too hard on people, awake.  If you point out peoples mistakes too much they may tend to not want to open up or share their trust.   I was just reading too quickly and thought you had included Behavior Modification.

 I don’t know how other people feel, but I’m sorry if what I said felt harsh to you.  And as it concerns troubled teen programs we should not hold back on pointing out what is being overlooked. I’m sorry you have taken it personally, confusion occurs anytime someone is expected to act in a situation in which they don’t have all the information. Do you think you really should feel the need to present facts about the troubled teen industry dishonestly because you get the impression you are being threatened?

I am not trained in the area but I think the key is protecting and increasing  the self esteem and insuring that the child is building his/herself towards a point where they become self sufficient and independent.  The child should earn his way using a reward system or step system where the child works his/her way through, build confidence by succeeding in their challenges.  Incentives should be added like trips to the city, more freedoms in daily activities, special foods, social activities etc. similar to what parents use at home.

You are not knowledgeable in the area of thought reform, or mind control, or coercive persuasion, but you DO know that the troubled teen industry has roots in using such methods, yet you are describing methods that are used in thought reform. You say “ key is protecting and increasing  the self esteem”. If  this is the difference between an unethical use of thought reform, and an ethical use of behavior modification, then how do you think you can MAKE someone improve their self esteem?

[Whooter]

I don’t know how other people feel, but I’m sorry if what I said felt harsh to you. And as it concerns troubled teen programs we should not hold back on pointing out what is being overlooked. I’m sorry you have taken it personally, confusion occurs anytime someone is expected to act in a situation in which they don’t have all the information. Do you think you really should feel the need to present facts about the troubled teen industry dishonestly because you get the impression you are being threatened?

I think people should present information that they have and be as honest as possible in presenting the facts.  I think most people who have read what I post know that I don’t take much very personally.  This is all a learning curve for all of us as none of us has all the information.

You are not knowledgeable in the area of thought reform, or mind control, or coercive persuasion, but you DO know that the troubled teen industry has roots in using such methods, yet you are describing methods that are used in thought reform. You say “ key is protecting and increasing the self esteem”. If this is the difference between an unethical use of thought reform, and an ethical use of behavior modification, then how do you think you can MAKE someone improve their self esteem?

I hear this over and over that the TTI has roots that can be traced back to North Korean Brain washing and torture.  But what does that mean?  They have also been able to trace all of humanity back to 8 people thousands of years ago.  Programs from decades ago are going to have similarities to programs of today but it doesn’t mean they are the same.  People rely so much on a single thread that may connect today to decades ago and try to convince themselves that Brainwashing and torture are occurring in every program today.  I probably have ancestors that were murderers but that doesn’t mean I believe in murder or am a threat to anyone.  Snake Venom can be turned into medicine.  
I think it is important to understand where the industries roots began, but people need to open their eyes and look at what is happening today (not read about Korea).  If one kid gets abused in a program in Utah and comes out and says he was brainwashed it doesn’t mean all programs are that way.

The use of Behavior Modification is not abusive and can be used to increase a childs self esteem.  Allow them to grow and succeed and celebrate their milestones.  I think the stories of straight and the seed and places like CEDU have over-shadowed fornits to the point where they believe all programs are like those were.




...

[Awake]

The use of Behavior Modification is not abusive and can be used to increase a childs self esteem.  Allow them to grow and succeed and celebrate their milestones.  I think the stories of straight and the seed and places like CEDU have over-shadowed fornits to the point where they believe all programs are like those were.

So you believe that behavior modification is never, and never has been, abusive?  If you don’t believe that can be true, what about in the context of force? Can it be abusive then?

.

[RobertBruce]

all I am saying is that is my point of view. Other readers my find the stories here very credible. I just seem to think there is something missing in many of the stories which raises a flag for me.

Your point of view counts for nothing. You have no first hand experience with them, we do. No one, and I mean no one finds your stories to be credible. You blather on and on about balance and how you dont see anything positive coming out of our stories. I'll reissue my challenge to you again, try and answer it without lying or making it about someone else.

Name one program running currently in the United States that you consider to be abusive. One.

[Whooter]

The use of Behavior Modification is not abusive and can be used to increase a childs self esteem.  Allow them to grow and succeed and celebrate their milestones.  I think the stories of straight and the seed and places like CEDU have over-shadowed fornits to the point where they believe all programs are like those were.

So you believe that behavior modification is never, and never has been, abusive?  If you don’t believe that can be true, what about in the context of force? Can it be abusive then?

.

Not at all, Behavior Mod can be abusive like anything else.  But it doesnt have to be to be effective.



...