12 steps

[DannyB II]

"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.

No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....

And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences.

That is exactly right, Anne. Meditate on this for a while.

Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated.

Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA. Though I do not believe reform is one, so relax on your ass kissing campaign.
His post was polite as far as eloquent I would not think so and I am sure he would say the same.

It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.

No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.

As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.

 

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.

[DannyB II]

why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory?

It's not.

What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?

Not a thing - Welcome to fornits

And Ginger - what you said - to right!

Buzz it has already been said, thanks for repeating it. Reformer does not need a Mom, he is doing just fine. He has already been welcomed to fornits. Jeesh I did not know you were the official welcoming staffer......lol.

What Ginger said is absolutely wrong in the context of my conversation and you know that. So at least try and act like you can think for yourself, instead of a automaton she (Ginger) operates from her couch.

[BuzzKill]

Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.  
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing.  So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Antigen]

If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.

Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?

7) Doctrine over Person
  If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
  feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
  "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
  questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf

The people most invited to meetings are those who feel they're having some trouble. Not necessarily weak people. Just people in a weakened state of mind; people at an emotional low.

Now, ask yourself why you would be so hostile to people who claim to have been injured?

I hate reading here about the 'evil'  A.A  because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused.
People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.

This same basic argument has been well hashed over in drug policy reform circles. There have been many rifts and diversions; hemp only vs. marijuana legalization; medical vs general marijuana legalization; marijuana vs other drugs; legalization vs decrim. And, by way of hard core segue, how about Straight primarily) program vets taking a hard line against any drug policy reform discussion whatsoever, thereby offending the living hell out of Arold Trebach who had been one of our mightiest heros for damned near 20 years before any of us ever even heard his name. If that wasn't the silliest thing I've seen in recent years I'd be hard pressed to tell you what was.

What always happens is that people who are interested in an open and intellectually honest discussion continue to do so and people who want to take a on narrower focus and view do that. Then the opposition First they ignores you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. (Mahatma Gandhi, paraphrased)

And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how  "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.

Wonderful! They've quit ignoring us. They quit laughing at drug policy reformers not too long ago and now MMJ there's some form of MJ law reform in every state. We're on our way!

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

Precisely! This is a discussion, not a legislative or litigative session. Thanks for understanding that.

[DannyB II]

Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.  
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing.  So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.

Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.

[Antigen]

Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.  
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing.  So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.

Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.

Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man!  :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.

[Ursus]

Dan Dear, I'll welcome whom I like when I like how ever often I like for what ever reason it pleases me to do so.  
I'll also agree with Ginger when ever I happen to agree with Ginger. Most anyone whose been around awhile can tell you, this is by no means an automatic thing.  So relax dude - your not fornits offical anything either.

Oh but you are so wrong, I am official and it is about time you get that through your head.
I am officially telling you, "that you are a walking, talking, brainwashed, scrubbed clean automaton, that Ginger turns on whenever she chooses.
I'll stop I am being horrible, I actually find you to be one of the posters I enjoy reading.
I am addicted to instigating, I can see that now. I love love to fool around.
Now Ginger on the other hand is just into arguing, if I say it is black she will say it is white.

Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man!  :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.

I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand.  

[Pile of Dead Kids]

I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand.  

Danny's Nanny?

[Ursus]

I think he gets like this when Liza is unavailable. She appears to exert a steadying hand.  

Danny's Nanny?

Allegedly his Significant Other. Who edits his posts:

OH yes Ursus, "I do scale back Danny's comments some of them are unnecessary." BTW my name is Liza. I for one do enjoy your posting, thank you.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Oh my, I wonder what their bedroom roleplay looks like.

[DannyB II]

If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.

Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?

I do not believe this poster inferred this or said this. Ginger this is your "staple" response to every AA poster here, going back years.
I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA. As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.
Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion.

7) Doctrine over Person
  If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
  feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
  "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
  questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf

Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you. You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA. Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.

The people most invited to meetings are those who feel they're having some trouble. Not necessarily weak people. Just people in a weakened state of mind; people at an emotional low.

Invited to meetings, no one is invited. This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities. Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others) and has yet to identify your own bio.

Now, ask yourself why you would be so hostile to people who claim to have been injured?

 :clown:  :roflmao: Coming from you and your cohorts, you really can't be in are world. Hostile towards folks who are damaged. When was the last time you said this to Pile after he waylaid a mother with his vulgarity.
Stay on your couch Ginger life will come back around.

I hate reading here about the 'evil'  A.A  because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused.
People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.

This same basic argument has been well hashed over in drug policy reform circles. There have been many rifts and diversions; hemp only vs. marijuana legalization; medical vs general marijuana legalization; marijuana vs other drugs; legalization vs decrim. And, by way of hard core segue, how about Straight primarily) program vets taking a hard line against any drug policy reform discussion whatsoever, thereby offending the living hell out of Arold Trebach who had been one of our mightiest heros for damned near 20 years before any of us ever even heard his name. If that wasn't the silliest thing I've seen in recent years I'd be hard pressed to tell you what was.

What always happens is that people who are interested in an open and intellectually honest discussion continue to do so and people who want to take a on narrower focus and view do that. Then the opposition First they ignores you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. (Mahatma Gandhi, paraphrased)
 
Is this the truth.....yep!!!

And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how  "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.

Wonderful! They've quit ignoring us. They quit laughing at drug policy reformers not too long ago and now MMJ there's some form of MJ law reform in every state. We're on our way!

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

Bullshit, sorry but keep dreaming. This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.

Precisely! This is a discussion, not a legislative or litigative session. Thanks for understanding that.

Ginger, please save it for some other fly by night poster.

[DannyB II]

Ginger wrote
Holy Christ on a BROKEN crutch, man!  :roflmao: Can you really look back over this thread and objectively accuse anyone in it but yourself of personal attacks? Really?? The only thing under attack is an idea; an argument. Fair game, really the whole point of discussion.

Jeesh did you miss Anne's post earlier, of course you did. Just could not see it could ya, go back several posts, come on you can do it.....read.
Fuck sake it is your site, why do I have to hold your hand. Pull your britches up and act like a big girl. Your sniveling again......lol.

[reformed12stepper]

I have a question for people who attended alcoholic anonymous meetings.  Do licensed chemical dependency counselors oversee these meetings?

Not where i am from. But in fairness i have heard that some 12 step based treatment centres have more professional staff

[Anne Bonney]

"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.

No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....

Not well.  You make up reasons for my disdain for AA because it threatens your viewpoint.  

Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA.

And there are a few people here that think AA is the be-all, end-all....the salvation, such as yourself.

It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.

No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.

You're a perfect example Danny.  You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all.  You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.

As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.

I don';t call people names because they believe in AA.....I call YOU names because you're rude and treat people who disagree with you as if you're still 'on staff'.

 

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.

Uh huh.....that's pretty much my point.  They've infiltrated the entire treatment industry, despite their own findings of a "success" rate of 5%.