12 steps

[Froderik]

No worries, DB. I throw that Jim Jones quote in on here from time to time, bear with me. Alcohol is a son-of-a-bitch. I decided for myself a while ago to cut it way back. I just don't have what it takes to drink like I used to. I don't ascribe to AA, but I don't fault anyone who does as long as they don't try to push it over on anyone else.

[Anne Bonney]

Danny, you keep saying that AA isn't the people, its the book & other literature. Many of us tell you that we feel that the basic tenets of aa ARE the problem. The you proceed to tell us that we either haven't read it (which most of us with strong opinions about it have...extensively) - or you tell us that we just don't understand it or we're taking it the wrong way. I've said most of the exact same things to you as you've heard in this thread. It's like you just can't accept that AA can actually be damaging for some people. Like if we could only see, we'd "get it" & be 'happy, joyous & free', like you (although you seem to be one of the most angry,resentful & generally unhappy person I've run into on these boards in a long time). It reminds me of the evangelical preachers trying to convert the poor,  unfortunate unbelievers. If we'd only see the light, right?

[A.A. is A. O.K]

If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.

I hate reading here about the 'evil'  A.A  because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.

And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" "queef," possibly the who, and on another thread is describing how  "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be believed because "they" think A.A. is abuse.

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

[Anne Bonney]

A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.  And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

[DannyB II]

"reformed12stepper" wrote":
danny I am not knocking anyone for being pro 12 steps. Having said that the fact that you have travelled the world extensively and been to aa meetings in every country kind of illustrates my concerns about 12 steps getting in the way of living a drug free life and enjoying all it has to offer. It is most unconventional outside of 12 step circles to decide that given the choice between seeing the sights of a country that you may never get to see again or going to a meeting that you go to every day at home the choice is a meeting.

I was in Austria last year, while in Vienna I stopped in at a AA meeting with fellow Austrian friend, after the meeting we went on to the Presidential House and Grounds, then to trip up into the Wine Region of Austria.
Now does this sound like I am not having fun or I am missing out on life.
My friend you have a very small view for such a big world.

I also find and i dont want to come off as an asshole here, your assumption that I have not read the book a little arrogant. This is exactly what I am saying. The book talks about doing what works and throwing out the rest but this did not reflect my experience at all. After a while i felt a lot of pressure to follow every step and when i didn't it was all about being in denial or being uncommitted. I appreciate that this was not neccesarily the case for everyone but it was for me. I also dont have any problem with people turning to religion if they feel it helps. But i dont want to be old that i need to in order to get better or i need to make the group my higher power. This was my experience.

Well am I sorry if I sound arrogant but once again, you have not studied the book. I am not stating that you have to agree with what the book says or whatever, just quote it accurately.
Of course the book did not reflect your story, your not a Alcoholic.....So let it go.
Why would you read a book about being African and then after your done, criticize the book and other Africans for being African.
I will say it but again, your quotes, "I don't want to be told, I don't want to be judged ect....If you had read the book you would not place the emphasis on people. You could make up your own mind.
   

I also dont know where you have travelled outside the us ( i am not american) but I think in most western countries 12 steps are considered by the general population the most likely way to get help. No doubt because they are free and open to everyone and this is certainly a good thing, but people need to know that there are plenty of other options out there and that failing to achieve sobriety or to overcome addiction through 12 steps is pretty common. It does not make you a failure and there are plenty of other options. People should also be aware of seedy 13th steppers when putting their faith in "the group" or picking a sponsor.

Just to name a few western countries I have attended groups England, Scotland, Ireland, Poland, Germany and Turkey. I have family that lives in Germany (Army), Turkey (sister's husband is Turkish they live in Linz, Austria).
The Democratic President Clinton, was a 13 stepper...lol (Oh and that is not in the Book). Filth, corruption is everywhere, especially in AA. Your talking about sex, drugs and rocka-rolla.

Im puzzled as to why you would say i am being condecending. I posted my own experience and philosophical issue with an organization. That is all. I have no issue with other people getting what they need from aa. But i found that when i stepped away from the meetings i realized what i was missing out on.

Sorry for that remark, concerning condescending. I think I misunderstood your overall tone. I do not want to alienate your opinions on this subject and make it seem I am not open to them. I am.
I actually agree that the folks in AA meetings can be a bit oppressive with their message, this is why I gently guide alcoholics in need to study the book, go to small meeting where they are focused on getting better.
I don't want a active Alcoholic who drinks alcoholically to suffer one more day, if I can help. I am not God or whoever, I do not believe I can save people, never have. I do believe I can help along with family and friends.

[DannyB II]

No worries, DB. I throw that Jim Jones quote in on here from time to time, bear with me. Alcohol is a son-of-a-bitch. I decided for myself a while ago to cut it way back. I just don't have what it takes to drink like I used to. I don't ascribe to AA, but I don't fault anyone who does as long as they don't try to push it over on anyone else.

Thanks Froderik, always appreciated your posts.
I don't actually ascribe to all of what AA (people) have turned into either. They put the "ill" in Illness.
I will help a suffering Alcoholic if I can, get him a bottle to tie him over, detox, 30 day rehab....whatever. I'll take him to a meeting that studies the book. I am talking about full blown Alcoholics, most folks know what I mean.
I have never pushed this on anyone nor would I. I debate the opinions expressed here yet I think that is misunderstood as pushing AA's agenda, which I am not. Just trying to separate the party side to AA (people) with the serious side the (literature). To many folks in AA have detrimental opinions they want to shout out.
Anyway......have a great weekend or what's left.

[reformed12stepper]

If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.

I hate reading here about the 'evil'  A.A  because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.

And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" and "queef," who on another thread is reporting  "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be beleived because "they" think A.A. is abuse.

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

I get what you are arguing here. I have read some pretty disturbing things about these youth rehabs and boarding schools and I would not say that AA is punitive and spiteful like that. Nor does it keep anyone against their will physically. I also never claimed that AA "damaged" me. Just that I disagree with a lot of the stuff that goes on and people should not feel like failures for not being successful at it. Right now this is a very common atitude and it is one 12 steps promotes. People should be made aware of all the options.
 But for arguments sake what if I did say that my chapter of AA was hurtful enough to be permanently "damaging". What if I was a person who was a bit thin skinned or vulnerable emotionally? As a person in favour of an organization that is supposed to be compassionate and welcoming do you honestly think it makes your organization look good to call me a "hothouse flower"? Or do you think it might make you come across as a bit aggressive and defensive with no logical reason for being so?
I dont really know who suck i is. I assume some other poster. Im puzzled there.

[DannyB II]

A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.  And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

Anne how are you, hope you are having a great weekend.
Now wasn't that a nice greeting, before I start to rebut your post.
Hey Anne you are entitled to your "etched in stone, rubber stamp comments".
You have earned them, especially coming from Straight, Inc.
Just try if you can to stop personally attacking folks who do not agree with you.
I am sitting on Long Island with about 50 folks (family and friends) and they don't find me unhappy, at all.
Well my cat does, I forgot to feed her last night.
Anne behave and be nice for once. You don't have to be rude every time you post to me.

Last note,
I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

This was 30 years ago, Anne. There are very few long term treatment centers involved with the 12 steps. At least what I have been able to ascertain.

[A.A. is A. O.K]

A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.  And you're right. We each have our opinions based on our experiences. Quite a few of us see the dangers in AA for many of the reasons "Reformed" so eloquently & politely stated. It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do. As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

[reformed12stepper]

why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory? What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?

[Antigen]

Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.

I've found the opposite to be true. For any change for the better to happen, one must feel hopeful, inspired. Most of all, it helps more than anything to have the love and support of people who actually know you well and love you anyway.

[DannyB II]

Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.

I've found the opposite to be true. For any change for the better to happen, one must feel hopeful, inspired. Most of all, it helps more than anything to have the love and support of people who actually know you well and love you anyway.

Ya well I would bet my life that any major changes in your life that you have made started with pain, ending one relationship and starting another, for one example. Getting fired from your last job and starting another knowing your track record sucks and so on.
Thanks for your unrealistic philosophical BS as usual, arm chair quaterbacking fornits must be making ya some money these days.
Relax sweetie w/Anne, this conversation is harmless.

[DannyB II]

If you're such a hot house flower that you wind up "damaged" by A.A., you are not long for this world.

I hate reading here about the 'evil'  A.A  because these statements are used to invalidate the claims of victims of the teen torture chambers regarding how they were damaged and abused. People take the statements of individuals and extrapolate them onto the group they associate with. That's how people think, like it or not. And the conclusion people will draw, sometimes, because of the incessant A.A. hysteria is that survivors' claims of brainwashing and damage in Synanon prisons cannot be taken seriously. If A.A. is damaging, then pretty much everything is damaging, and, as such, Synanon style prisons cannot really fairly be held responsible for everyone's overly intense sensitivities.

And, heads up: Reformed appears to be "suck it" and "queef," who on another thread is reporting  "fornits posters" allegations of abuse in the "specialty schools" cannot be beleived because "they" think A.A. is abuse.

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

I get what you are arguing here. I have read some pretty disturbing things about these youth rehabs and boarding schools and I would not say that AA is punitive and spiteful like that. Nor does it keep anyone against their will physically. I also never claimed that AA "damaged" me. Just that I disagree with a lot of the stuff that goes on and people should not feel like failures for not being successful at it. Right now this is a very common atitude and it is one 12 steps promotes. People should be made aware of all the options.
 But for arguments sake what if I did say that my chapter of AA was hurtful enough to be permanently "damaging". What if I was a person who was a bit thin skinned or vulnerable emotionally? As a person in favour of an organization that is supposed to be compassionate and welcoming do you honestly think it makes your organization look good to call me a "hothouse flower"? Or do you think it might make you come across as a bit aggressive and defensive with no logical reason for being so?
I dont really know who suck i is. I assume some other poster. Im puzzled there.

Reformed.
It has nothing to do with thinned skinned, vulnerable emotionally, AA being accommodating to your whims, common attitudes that AA promotes ( BTW where in gods name do you get this) are you that dependent on people that you can not think for yourself. AA is a self help program with the ability to offer support if wanted. You don't actually need anyone to help you to gain some answers in AA, the literature will do this well.
If you want to find the sickest ones in AA to listen to then so be it. Everything you have mentioned anyone with common sense could figure out, as you did, as I did.

(I do not mean this literally, it is just for argument sake)
I think being a member of AA I have the almighty right to call you a asshole if I feel compelled to, What the hell gives you the right to make up all this shit about AA come here and puke it out, you got all your info from the sickest fuckes you could find, this doesn't say alot about you.
You keep saying people should be made aware of other options, does AA have a cloaking device to shut out all other options through satellite.....lol. There are plenty of other options, just as I said when I came around AA it was not the first choice mentioned to me.

[DannyB II]

why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory? What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?

You are neither, actually you are one of the best posters on this topic in a while.

[BuzzKill]

why is a legitimate discussion of the flaws of an organization tin foil hat territory?

It's not.

What exactly have I said that makes me a troll?

Not a thing - Welcome to fornits

And Ginger - what you said - to right!