12 steps

[reformed12stepper]

I have read the AA criticisms with interest on this forum and a few others. I am a guy who took way too many drugs for most of my 20s. When I decided that it had gotten way more out of hand than I ever intended 12 steps seemed like the most logical choice. But after going a few times I did have a few concerns. As an openly gay man organized religion has never been for me. Who wants to believe in a God that doesn’t even like him? Most of the people there had gotten religion when they gave up the drugs but I knew this was not the thing for me. There were a few others like me but they believed in using the group for the higher power thing. I didn’t get that at all. I mean I had done some pretty stupid shit to get myself in this state and I was hardly alone. So the idea that people who had done some equally stupid things held all of the answers made no sense at all.

Most of my fellow 12 steppers were good decent, and sincere people who really cared about me, this was touching. But they did seem to have the view that any friends who even drank wine with dinner or smoked a single joint had no place in my life. As my closest friends and family, some of the very people who had been gently urging me to get help for years fitted this category it made no sense. In this respect 12 steps were a little like a cult. I also read a bit about these places that exercise peer pressure a lot and almost force kids to lie or exaggerate only to use it against them. I have to say that while 12 steps never exercised that kind of extreme pressure, it sometimes would get a bit competitive. Like whose behavior before reaching rock bottom was the most hardcore. Or who had endured a more insane personal life on the road to drug abuse. I would leave feeling guilty because I did not have a childhood that was filled with abuse or any overwhelming issues that lead me to take drugs. I just took them because it seemed like a fun thing to do at the time and I let it get out of hand. The way some people do with food. But I would say that and sometimes feel a level of judgement.
I also tried a group just for gay people. It had 3 factions. The first was the dirty old men who were mainly there to try and pick up. The second were the lesbians who liked to cry a lot. Then there were the younger gay guys who were busy running away from the dirty old men. I guess that was me. So I decided to give up on 12 steps.
I went to a really good rehab and got some one on one counselling. They had a group therapy option but I didn’t go in for it. I think that the rehab as much as anything gave me a few weeks of alone time to just think things over. This with lots of ongoing counselling has been helpful for me.
In hindsight there were some good things about 12 steps. I felt like the moral inventory idea was helpful for me because I was forced to take stock and think about what the drug abuse was causing me to loose. The people were also very kind mostly if a little strange. Their intentions I don’t believe were bad.
 But I realized they were missing the bigger picture one crisp evening when I bumped into a woman from the first group I went to. It had been the kind of day that was cloudless but cold enough to need a jacket. I had spent the afternoon watching my small nephew kick his first goal in a football game. When it was over he ran at me muddy and elated demanding to know whether I had seen his triumph. I was on my way to meet some loyal old friends for dinner at a favourite restaurant. Life felt great. The woman and I exchanged pleasantries and I asked what she was up to. Sure enough she was planning to spend her Saturday night in a cold church hall on uncomfortable chairs drinking freeze dried coffee. Off to 12 steps. She had gone daily for 3 years. She asked if I was sure I shouldn’t be working on my self and told me I was always welcome back. I thanked her, gave her a hug and declined. Then i walked off into my happy drug free life.

[DannyB II]

There is always room for another opinion on the 12 steps. Here is one more, you wrote briefly about the 4 step, which was great, I thought for a moment there you were going to write more on your experiences of the steps.
How they helped you and so on but you decided to talk about the coffee, chairs, young gay people, old gay people and cold churches.
AA is not necessarily responsible for providing you with decent, young attractive gay people nor comfy, warm chairs with a rosy building. I am sorry your expectations were so high, what a AA does provide is a Book for you to read and practice at your leisure and if you want help no matter if your gay or not, if you really want to you can find a decent role model who happens to be gay in AA, they are there.
If your still having problems or have given up, come see us at, "The Triangle" in Atlanta, GA. plenty of good healthy gay folks and you can run into Elton John on a Friday night if your lucky.
I guess it is just like a neighborhood, we move in and realize our neighbors are not the kinda folk we want to live next to. So we have two choices, 1) we can move to another neighborhood or 2) we can learn to accept all kinds of folks. That is my short version.

[Ursus]

There is always room for another opinion on the 12 steps. Here is one more, you wrote briefly about the 4 step, which was great, I thought for a moment there you were going to write more on your experiences of the steps.
How they helped you and so on but you decided to talk about the coffee, chairs, young gay people, old gay people and cold churches.
AA is not necessarily responsible for providing you with decent, young attractive gay people nor comfy, warm chairs with a rosy building. I am sorry your expectations were so high, what a AA does provide is a Book for you to read and practice at your leisure and if you want help no matter if your gay or not, if you really want to you can find a decent role model who happens to be gay in AA, they are there.
If your still having problems or have given up, come see us at, "The Triangle" in Atlanta, GA. plenty of good healthy gay folks and you can run into Elton John on a Friday night if your lucky.
I guess it is just like a neighborhood, we move in and realize our neighbors are not the kinda folk we want to live next to. So we have two choices, 1) we can move to another neighborhood or 2) we can learn to accept all kinds of folks. That is my short version.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see where reformed12stepper wrote about a "4 step." Is there perhaps an oblique reference that I'm just not picking up on?

[reformed12stepper]

Well my biggest issue was actually the "powerlessness" philosophy. I just do better when I have to take control, On one hand they make you do a moral inventory to take responsibility, on the other hand if you don't put yourself in the hands of others or god it doesn't work. I also found it hugely problematic that they expected me to discourage loved ones from drinking around me. I was not even there for alcohol abuse. Why should my family and friends have to take responsibility for my errors? My point about the chairs was also not to whine, it was to point out that going to the same place every night for a "meeting" is a great way of missing out on all the things that make drug free life great. Like sharing time with family and friends. I also dont know about your final analogy. I guess I moved neighborhoods. But not because i couldn't stand the people. I liked many of the people (except ironically in the group just for Gay people) it was the model i didnt. I felt like i was taking one addiction and replacing it with another.
At the end of the day I am happy for you if 12 steps did it or you. But it didn't work for me and i think it is a good idea for more people to have a look at all the options because there are other things that can work. But when most of us think of getting a loved one help we think of 12 steps

[DannyB II]

"reformed12stepper"

Well my biggest issue was actually the "powerlessness" philosophy.

They are actually just referring to alcohol, I am powerless over alcohol. For me this is a true statement. I don't necessarily relate this to the rest of my life. Now I can turn my will over to a god but remember this is but a suggestion. If you read the book.
 

I just do better when I have to take control,

OK

On one hand they make you do a moral inventory to take responsibility,

No one is making you do anything, you can either do it or not. AA is not the people (per say) AA is what you decide it is for you.

on the other hand if you don't put yourself in the hands of others or god it doesn't work.

That is not true at all, I do not put myself in other hands and never have, I asked for advice and received it. God is a private decision.

I also found it hugely problematic that they expected me to discourage loved ones from drinking around me. I was not even there for alcohol abuse. Why should my family and friends have to take responsibility for my errors?

If your in a AA meeting or hanging around AA folks they will rightly assume you have a alcohol problem, most folks in AA today have had issues with drugs and alcohol, usually when you have abused one then the other would follow. Your family and friends are not taking responsibility for your problems with drugs, by not drinking around you, most close friends and family will do this out of love for you.  

My point about the chairs was also not to whine, it was to point out that going to the same place every night for a "meeting" is a great way of missing out on all the things that make drug free life great. Like sharing time with family and friends.

Going to a meeting for 1 hour every night is not asking to much out of me, when you consider I drank and drugged every day for 10 years. It is called detoxing and changing behavior. (short version)
I was not missing out on life, I was building a life I am enjoying today. This was 22 years ago.
I'm sure when you and I were getting high like we were, there was very little sharing time with our family and friends.
Be grateful for the life you have today, try not to take all the credit because we did not do it all by ourselves.

I also dont know about your final analogy. I guess I moved neighborhoods. But not because i couldn't stand the people. I liked many of the people (except ironically in the group just for Gay people) it was the model i didnt. I felt like i was taking one addiction and replacing it with another.
At the end of the day I am happy for you if 12 steps did it or you. But it didn't work for me and i think it is a good idea for more people to have a look at all the options because there are other things that can work. But when most of us think of getting a loved one help we think of 12 steps

I have moved on for the most part from AA, in so far as going to a meeting on a regular bases. I will forever keep the 12 steps close to my heart because I believe they are a miracle of this past century. As far as the groups and many of the people I meet/met in AA, that is another thing. AA for good or bad allows you to say, do, act and promote AA anyway you want, they do not actively govern. So folks can act as weird as they want and call it AA.
Well that is why I say the people are not necessarily AA, the AA literature is.
Did AA work for me, yes it did, the AA 12 steps. Replace Alcohol for Drugs in the first step and your on your way.
I challenge anyone to read the steps and say they could not help you, even if you are a atheist. I have 2 friends that are that credit the 12 steps to helping them.
The 12 steps were not written in stone they can be flexible.
Thanks for talking with me about this. I wish you well and I am very happy you came through your drug problem in one piece. I can only hope you have much success.

[BuzzKill]

http://http://bit.ly/8XYk7G

Article by Maia - very pertinent to the topic - and well worth reading.

[DannyB II]

http://http://bit.ly/8XYk7G

Article by Maia - very pertinent to the topic - and well worth reading.

Buzz this is a great article, I have read it many times and encourage this poster and others to read it. Maia nails it on the head.  
Maia's point though is often taken into consideration after folks have reached AA. It would be next to impossible to research help for yourself while your under the influences of alcohol and drugs everyday.
I am here today and am as successful as I am because of the additional work I did outside of AA. Though I do credit AA for helping me build my foundation.
As I have said before on this site, the interpretation of AA is so out of line, it is comical at times. Everyone here has a right to their opinion of AA, I am not here as the vanguard of AA. I just try to present the experiences I have had for over 20 years.
Buzz don't put as much emphasis on the folks in AA, try to let AA speak through the literature.

[reformed12stepper]

That was a good article. i wish there were more like it. Most people think that ideas like "reaching rock bottom" and doing the 12 steps are the only answer because the other options are not as widely publicized. Which is kind of my point danny. When you are taking a lot of stuff you go to the most publicized option which is 12 steps. When it was not my thing i felt like a real failure and got a little worse for a while. I was lucky to have a relative who is a doctor & she said some of her patients had privately complained of the same thing. This gave me a lot of hope.
I should add that 12 steps is not cult like in the traditional dramatic sense. Some chapters are also possibly different to others and more relaxed. But it is a gradual sort of thing. Like at first they say take what you want and get rid of the rest. But then when you do you can be accused of being in denial. Like with the whole issue of powerlessless. Even if you are religious there is still this idea that god gave you freewill so if you exercised it to snort thousands of dollars by yourself then surely you can exercise it to turn your life around. This sounds arrogant but if you feel like shit for doing some of the bad things that you did on drugs as most of us invariably do, then why is it so bad to take the credit for turning your life around? Why do you have to surrender to anyone's will be it god or he group?
 There was also a subtle level of emotional blackmail. I mean they dont say cut off your friends but anyone not on the "journey" should be held at a distance. Or friends being expected to refrain from drinking out of love. If they don't is it because they don't love you? Even if your issue is drug abuse not alcohol? I saw one woman being advised to divorce her husband of 10 years for not being on the journey. That seemed a bit strong to me. I did not think anyone was in a position to give advice on such a big issue.

I should add that many meetings go for far longer than an hour. Some people are encouraged to do more than give up an hour of their lives, they are urged to give up loved ones and friends not on the same path. This can ultimately mean that if you are not careful you can miss out on all the stuff that makes drug free life great! Thats not to say aa does not work for some but given the choice of spending my time and putting my trust in the hands of strangers, or enjoying the company of loved ones the latter will win for me every time.

[Froderik]

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

[Ursus]

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

Daisy quacks out a song

[DannyB II]

"reformed12stepper" wrote:
That was a good article. i wish there were more like it. Most people think that ideas like "reaching rock bottom" and doing the 12 steps are the only answer because the other options are not as widely publicized.

Well I wish that was the case but it is not, the church still reins supreme in the department of where do most folks go looking for help with there addictions.
Listen, hitting rock bottom is a relative term, you do not have to loose everything, to hit "rock bottom". Here is another term widely used, for any change to happen one must feel pain. That is a very accurate statement.

Which is kind of my point danny. When you are taking a lot of stuff you go to the most publicized option which is 12 steps. When it was not my thing i felt like a real failure and got a little worse for a while. I was lucky to have a relative who is a doctor & she said some of her patients had privately complained of the same thing. This gave me a lot of hope.

Well most of the folks I have talked to had never even heard of AA at first, I did not. I did not even know AA existed until I was in a detox program for 15 days. The first treatment plan I had heard of was detox then church.

I should add that 12 steps is not cult like in the traditional dramatic sense. Some chapters are also
possibly different to others and more relaxed. But it is a gradual sort of thing. Like at first they say take what you want and get rid of the rest. But then when you do you can be accused of being in denial. Like with the whole issue of powerlessless.

I am not sure where you got this cult dynamic from but I can only assume it is from the same literature and experiences many folks here have been through.
When you talk of or about AA there are two dynamics happening the literature and the people. Yes the people can be cultist, brainwashed and act like robots. They can be dirty old men and women, they can be all walks of live here in America. Then there is the AA literature that I read and understand the principles they are teaching, which are basic life values.
AA is not made up of chapters, they are groups which you give way to much power to.
Who is "they", that is telling you these things. If you had "read" the book you would not be referencing people as much nor would your "dependence" be placed in the people in AA.
The only issue with powerlessness is your misunderstanding of the phrase because you have not read the book. You are paraphrasing the same opinion everyone else here has. They choose to have there opinion of what powerlessness is, which is fine just stop saying this is what AA is saying.
 

Even if you are religious there is still this idea that god gave you freewill so if you exercised it to snort thousands of dollars by yourself then surely you can exercise it to turn your life around. This sounds arrogant but if you feel like shit for doing some of the bad things that you did on drugs as most of us invariably do, then why is it so bad to take the credit for turning your life around? Why do you have to surrender to anyone's will be it god or he group?

You don't have to, AA does not demand that you choose a god as you explained above, pick whatever one you want or not. There are many atheists in AA.
Where are you getting your information from or are you looking for this to suit your opinion of AA.

There was also a subtle level of emotional blackmail. I mean they dont say cut off your friends but anyone not on the "journey" should be held at a distance. Or friends being expected to refrain from drinking out of love. If they don't is it because they don't love you? Even if your issue is drug abuse not alcohol? I saw one woman being advised to divorce her husband of 10 years for not being on the journey. That seemed a bit strong to me. I did not think anyone was in a position to give advice on such a big issue.

Like I said before in my last post, I am sure you are not hanging around your friends that you snorted coke with every night, so why are you making a big deal out of someone suggesting that you take it easy with the people you intend on hanging with so you can ensure you stay clean. Stop reading so much into every suggestion.
I got sober in Connecticut, where 50% of my family is and my late wife's. Every party we went to 90% of the folks were drinking and at times smoking pot, all I needed to know is that they had my back. My family and friends knew I needed to get my life together and they supported that and if some of those folks did not support me, so be it, that is life.
Now since when does AA have to take such a hit because people who attend AA meeting give out bogus opinions. I am sure there are people in your life right know that also give folks bogus advice on life, I don't hear you railing against them here also.
Dude stop blaming AA, for what people who attend meetings are saying. READ THE BOOK.

I should add that many meetings go for far longer than an hour. Some people are encouraged to do more than give up an hour of their lives,

Well my friend I have been to AA meeting in practically every state in this country (including Alaska and Hawaii) and 12 other countries, every meeting was no longer then a hour and a half with a 15min break after the first 45 mins, this was in New England and California with the South and Mid West going for a hour with no break.

they are urged to give up loved ones and friends not on the same path.

Yes my brother, cousin and several friends gave up love ones who continued down a path of self destruction. Just like you would give up a girlfriend that was not working for you, a job that was treating you disrespectfully and so on.

This can ultimately mean that if you are not careful you can miss out on all the stuff that makes drug free life great! Thats not to say aa does not work for some but given the choice of spending my time and putting my trust in the hands of strangers, or enjoying the company of loved ones the latter will win for me every time.

Dude I am not sure where you have gotten all your information from but ya know what, it really does not matter. It sounds like you are doing great and that is what counts. I am happy for you, having a habit of cocaine is not fun.
There are no strangers in AA if you are in AA. It was not for you so please don't knock someone else for there experience of loving relationships. There are many relationships I have because I met someone at a meeting.
Why you think folks are missing out on life.....lol.
I would almost bet my life, that your life right now is no different then someone else that struggled with cocaine who is in AA/NA. Your not better then they are, that my friend is very condescending.

[DannyB II]

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.

[Froderik]

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.

:rofl:  :clown:  :beat:  :soapbox: ::fullofshit::   :rasta:

[DannyB II]

I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

You know what I am tired of, reading someone who claims to have been tormented to hell and have him come back and torment me, that's what I'm tired of.
Go away and take your tired hell with you.
Your old Froderik.

Froderik before this goes any further, I have no problem with you. I should not have posted my last comments.
All I am doing is having a harmless conversation with another person here.
Lets just stop now and call it a day.
Peace......
danny

[reformed12stepper]

danny I am not knocking anyone for being pro 12 steps. Having said that the fact that you have travelled the world extensively and been to aa meetings in every country kind of illustrates my concerns about 12 steps getting in the way of living a drug free life and enjoying all it has to offer. It is most unconventional outside of 12 step circles to decide that given the choice between seeing the sights of a country that you may never get to see again or going to a meeting that you go to every day at home the choice is a meeting.
I also find and i dont want to come off as an asshole here, your assumption that I have not read the book a little arrogant. This is exactly what I am saying. The book talks about doing what works and throwing out the rest but this did not reflect my experience at all. After a while i felt a lot of pressure to follow every step and when i didn't it was all about being in denial or being uncommitted. I appreciate that this was not neccesarily the case for everyone but it was for me. I also dont have any problem with people turning to religion if they feel it helps. But i dont want to be old that i need to in order to get better or i need to make the group my higher power. This was my experience.
I also dont know where you have travelled outside the us ( i am not american) but I think in most western countries 12 steps are considered by the general population the most likely way to get help. No doubt because they are free and open to everyone and this is certainly a good thing, but people need to know that there are plenty of other options out there and that failing to achieve sobriety or to overcome addiction through 12 steps is pretty common. It does not make you a failure and there are plenty of other options. People should also be aware of seedy 13th steppers when putting their faith in "the group" or picking a sponsor.
Im puzzled as to why you would say i am being condecending. I posted my own experience and philosophical issue with an organization. That is all. I have no issue with other people getting what they need from aa. But i found that when i stepped away from the meetings i realized what i was missing out on.