The Fucking Weak.

[webdiva]

One thing you probably should keep in mind is that it is ever so easy for program vets to use their experience as an excuse for their pathetic shortcomings in life.  Yes, it sucked, yes I have friends today that are dead because of it, yes it has caused long term effects in many of us, myself included.  However, there are also a great many people that have risen above what happened to them 20-30 years ago and have done very well in life, including assuming the role of a decent husband and father.  There are millions of people in the world that have experienced trauma in one shape, form, or another including POWs, holocaust victims, etc. that do not use their experience as a scapegoat to justify failure or misfortune in life.  

And there are MILLIONS who don't rise up because they CANT. you act as if its a fucking choice!  

So therefore, because your brain works in a way where it allowed you to move on, because you didn't suffer as badly long term and were ABLE To  , this somehow makes YOU a Good or better person then someone, who Might have say been  chemically imbalanced or just couldn't handle it? Because after all everything is equal right? we are all on a level playing field right? How ludacris. I wouldn't BEGIN to judge ONE MANS journey by my own accomplishments or anyone else. How extremely ignorant and unfair of YOU!

I guess those who are dead, those Who killed themselves, just weren't GOOD enough, better off without them we must be! Maybe one day you will wake up and realize the mind is a very fragile thing, and while some can EASILY bounce back some NEVER will and its NOT ALWAYS a choice my friend. Everyone is doing what they can do get by and it's so much easier when you have support instead of judgment.  SO you left it behind. WOO FUCKIN HOO! Good job! Everyone else SUCKS!  I'll pass that shit on to my dead brother. mm k.

Guest Bunny (I can't type that with a straight face) If you want to shred what I have to say to this wife and mother experiencing turbulent times go ahead, I knew you would.  Shame you have nothing to offer, I'm one up on you already.

You say

there are MILLIONS who don't rise up because they CANT

"Can't" rise up?  Y'see, you wacky wabbit, that is where we differ.  I spent many many years of my life listening to what others tell me I can't do.  "Can't" is a word that is long since gone from my vocabulary and is not an excuse for the manner in which I choose to live.  That's right bunny-ol-buddy, for me it is a choice.  A choice that I make each and every day.   I have too many friends from the program that have chosen to die, contrarily I have chosen to live.  I live each and every day and I do so freely.  I am not dead, nor insane, nor in jail.  The program was wrong.  The choices I make keep me alive, sane, free, and happy.

You say:

So therefore, because your brain works in a way where it allowed you to move on

Look 'Hare' bunny--My brain is no different than yours or anyone else.  The decisions I make sound to be vastly different from some though.  I do not say that with any condescension.  We make different decisions on a daily basis.  I may order a Chimay and you may order a Budweiser does that mean I am "better" in any regard, not at all.  We all make different decisions.  Plain and simple.  Some choose to take their own life, I choose to live.  

I like to think that I haven't surrendered, forfeited, nor traded my own personal responsibility for any excuses which scapegoat the program for my shortcomings in life.  I have met those that stub their toe and curse STRAIGHT for the fact that if they weren't stuck in group all those years that they would have been walking around in the free world.  Therefore naturally they would have had more experience with walking and of course wouldn't have stubbed their toe.  Damn that STRAIGHT!!  Bullshit!!

You say:

because you didn't suffer as badly long term

C'mon funny bunny, keep it real.  You have no idea who I am, how long I was there, nor what I suffered.  The fact that my words are not that of some wretched shell shocked remnant of a person because of my experience in the program has nothing to do with my tenure there or the fact that it was less tramautic for me than it was for anyone else.  

You say:

I wouldn't BEGIN to judge ONE MANS journey by my own accomplishments or anyone else.

You talking shit to me here doesn't exactly sound to be fair and impartial.  Granted my journey is a complicated one (as is all of ours), but it is one that has transformed my own bleeding wounds to less prominant permanent and indelible scars that will never heal.  However it has allowed me to carry on living my life in my own way.  

Allow me to firmly correct you, I didn't leave it all behind.  I will always have the scars of my experience and of loved ones I lost.  

In closing Guest Bunny, I am not judging anyone for anything.  I was simply typing my two cents for someone that might read it and might not.  I didn't mean for it sound like I am some enlightened buddha on a mountain with all the answers.  I'm not.

 
Oh im sure i was being  erratic in my response, I seem to do that this time of year but oh well.   you really think we all have identical brains do ya? LOL that's funny... You know all it takes to be a serial killer is just a slight difference in the frontal lobe which any of us can be born with.  No our brains are like fingerprints my friend.  Chemical reactions run amuck in some cases.

And you're right  i dont know you, you chose not to reveal that so i can only go by what you give me.   Which were the words in this post.  you say it allowed you to carry your life on in your own way... not everyone had the same result and it wasn't a choice, so yes the word can't does come to mind.  Sure there are some who won't as well as some who can't.

I think by you assuming anyone can't you are judging in a sense.  That's like saying; you know them, their struggle, how it affected them mentally, well enough, to say oh yes you can! I know it was just your opinion and i know i went off on it, with my own, no so eloquently, but c'est la vie.   Not in the best frame of mind this time of year.

I personally think your perspective may be a little biased.. some kids went through  stuff in there that  they will never get over even if they want to. But i guess, how could you possibly  know that  unless it actually affected you in that way.  

Can't may not be in your vocabulary, good for you. That is a great thing, for you. What works for you, my friend, isn't going to work for everyone just because you think it should that is a somewhat ignorant way to look at life and man. Cuz everyone is different as are the effects life has  on them.

[Anonymous]

Oh im sure i was being erratic in my response, I seem to do that this time of year but oh well. you really think we all have identical brains do ya? LOL that's funny... You know all it takes to be a serial killer is just a slight difference in the frontal lobe which any of us can be born with. No our brains are like fingerprints my friend. Chemical reactions run amuck in some cases.

And you're right i dont know you, you chose not to reveal that so i can only go by what you give me. Which were the words in this post. you say it allowed you to carry your life on in your own way... not everyone had the same result and it wasn't a choice, so yes the word can't does come to mind. Sure there are some who won't as well as some who can't.

I think by you assuming anyone can't you are judging in a sense. That's like saying; you know them, their struggle, how it affected them mentally, well enough, to say oh yes you can! I know it was just your opinion and i know i went off on it, with my own, no so eloquently, but c'est la vie. Not in the best frame of mind this time of year.

I personally think your perspective may be a little biased.. some kids went through stuff in there that they will never get over even if they want to. But i guess, how could you possibly know that unless it actually affected you in that way.

Can't may not be in your vocabulary, good for you. That is a great thing, for you. What works for you, my friend, isn't going to work for everyone just because you think it should that is a somewhat ignorant way to look at life and man. Cuz everyone is different as are the effects life has on them.

Identical brains, no.  I don't think we have identical brains but I do believe that there are a lot of similiarities in the human cognitive condition.  We are animals by nature, individuals but animals nonetheless.  It is our own innate instinct combined with our learned behaviors that shape who we are and the decisions we make in life.  We have no control over our genetic make up (y'know "genetic make up"...on the cosmetic aisle next to MAC--kidding, this is far too deep of shit for me not to laugh) but we do have some decision making capability when it comes down to what influences our own behavior.  

Your serial killer analogy was interesting.  Yes only a slight difference in the frontal lobe at birth can cause one to kill, however the same deviation can also cause one to be a gifted savant.  This is the genetic stuff which we have no control over that is aforementioned in the above paragraph.  However, one can also live a life of abuse and hatred as a child that results in a similiar outcome even though all was physiologically perfect at birth and life thereafter.  Perhaps it is also within the realm of possibility that one can experience the same life of abuse and hatred as a child and grow up to be a kind and loving adult.  All is possible depending on learned behavior and the consequences of ones own decision making.  My opinion.

Yes, indeed chemicals run amuck as you mentioned, but people with chemical imbalances are the very much the exception to the rule.  Personally I believe chemically imbalanced brains are very trendy in this day and age of pharmological profits.  We have Viagra to make you stiff, Zyrtec to make you stop sneezing, Ambien to put you to sleep, and a number of capitalist driven pharmaceutical companies that offer solutions for "chemical imbalances".

To be correct, I don't "know them, their struggle, and how it affected them mentally" as you stated.  I know only me, what worked for me, and what continues to work for me on a daily basis.  I am not interested in convincing anyone of what really works for me personally.  What really, really fucking really works for me is TBPITW, but that is a different story.

You said:

personally think your perspective may be a little biased.. some kids went through stuff in there that they will never get over even if they want to. But i guess, how could you possibly know that unless it actually affected you in that way.

I'll say it again, it DID affect me in that way.  I will never, ever get over my experience in the hellhole I was in.  I will never ever forget.  But on the same hand, I will never ever go back.  Nor will I resolve to live the rest of my life afflicted.  Similiarly, if I lost both of my legs I should hope that I would not sit in a wheelchair drunk in my living room watching television because it is all I can do.  I would hope that I would continue to live my life to the best of my ability despite that which I have no control over.  I cannot begin to speculate about life as a paraplegic, but I would hope that I would have the same desire to LIVE my life that I do today.  I would hope that I would make that decision at that point in time.  Even then, it is a decision how to play the cards dealt.

You said:

Can't may not be in your vocabulary, good for you. That is a great thing, for you. What works for you, my friend, isn't going to work for everyone just because you think it should that is a somewhat ignorant way to look at life and man. Cuz everyone is different as are the effects life has on them.

I don't think I ever said nor implied that what works for me works for everyone.  I said "One thing you probably should keep in mind is that it is ever so easy for program vets to use their experience as an excuse for their pathetic shortcomings in life." Which is true in some circumstances for some people.  

Do you really disagree with that statement?

I'm asking...

[Anonymous]

Guest 1 says: "I'll say it again, it DID affect me in that way. I will never, ever get over my experience in the hellhole I was in. I will never ever forget. But on the same hand, I will never ever go back. Nor will I resolve to live the rest of my life afflicted. Similiarly, if I lost both of my legs I should hope that I would not sit in a wheelchair drunk in my living room watching television because it is all I can do. I would hope that I would continue to live my life to the best of my ability despite that which I have no control over. I cannot begin to speculate about life as a paraplegic, but I would hope that I would have the same desire to LIVE my life that I do today. I would hope that I would make that decision at that point in time. Even then, it is a decision how to play the cards dealt."

What do you do if you analogetically speaking, are this paraplegic and sitting in the wheelchair in a room with the people that paralyzed you? What would you say or do? If you knew they were causing harm to others but you're a paraplegic now, so what would you do? Just sit there? Let them profit from creating paraplegics, knowing full well that you were victimized by them? Seems rather 'egotistical' of you or pompous or something like that. Sure, people have choices to make, but if they make good choices then they should be rewarded, not constantly 'wondering' all the time if people approve of them. There are a lot of side effects of the program that affect you and everyone else, even if you don't realize it. I wonder why you just sit there and let them create more 'paraplegics'.

 

[starry-eyed pirate]

It's easy to blame the world and it's easy to blame $tr8.  But really, after a while you just keep livin.  Obviously, I'm not referrin, here to those who have already left this world, but to those who continue to live and wrestle with their demons.  I'll admit I used $tr8 as an excuse plenty, when I would've been better off not.  On the other hand, numerous serial crimes were committed against me over a 23 month period, during some of the most crucial years of my life, which have had far-reaching and heavy repercussions.  There are legitimate reasons why I struggle and yet there are times when I make excuses too.  Such is life.  Point taken.

Webdiva, I'm so sorry you have suffered so much.   ::kiss::

[webdiva]

I don't think I ever said nor implied that what works for me works for everyone.  I said "One thing you probably should keep in mind is that it is ever so easy for program vets to use their experience as an excuse for their pathetic shortcomings in life." Which is true in some circumstances for some people.  

Do you really disagree with that statement?

I'm asking...

Look the last thing I support is a prozac nation. that was NOT my implication, everything Can be "answered" with a pill, right. I fully disagree with that attitude. But I do study cognitive science, hoping to go back and major in it actually and am finding out some damn interesting things about the ole brain. Plenty of studies out there you know... Anyway, the whole prozac nation mentality is exactly why I've chosen not to got that route even if it will help... We pass pills out like candy, there is a reason this is happening in our country, after all.  My point really is a chemical imbalance  is perspective. Who is to say someone is imbalanced? I mean unless it's some major imbalance, but who ever defined what the "balance" was?. Who is to say what's normal? As if anyone  really has a handle on that ?? People would love to think so.

Do I agree with your FINAL statement? you mean the judgmental one  about someones pathetic shortcomings ? So nice of you to put it that way.  Who wouldn't agree that in some circumstances for SOME people anything is possible.  My question to you is how could you   possibly know for a fact that a person is blaming their "pathetic" shortcomings on straight when it's in fact simply because they are a pathetic loser?  

How do you know for a  fact something they went through didn't effect then much deeper than it did you?  How do you know they  hadn't had a miserable or abusive childhood prior? Many people never reveal certain abuse, even to their best friends so don't think you would know cuz you knew them.  
 
Boys and girls actually got raped by staff in straight.  We had a cia agent/pedophile/rapist working for straight apprehending cop outs, I knew him personally.  My brother "supposedly" reported a rape while he was on a cop out when he got back into straight and was told he deserved it and it was never reported to the police.   I think at that point I'd be ready to die. They had created an outlook so bleak for him he  thought he had no other choice and he had no one to turn to. No one.

Things that traumatic can most definitely cause social issues that will be with someone for the  rest of their natural born life, no matter HOW hard they try to change. Are you saying that is NOT true?  The one thing I will say is this. Once a person lays the blame, it is up to them to do what they can to live. Sure. Do they have a right to keep laying blame? Absolutely, it's their struggle, their life and who am I to say otherwise.  I myself would do my damnedest to move on but i certainly would never let a friend think I thought his issues were pathetic and he was using straight as an excuse. Because there is no way I could know that for sure.  

How do you take a statement like your question to me and say you aren't being judgmental? Do you pick and choose whose shortcomings are valid and whose are pathetic?  On whose authority do you do this? And based on what knowledge of their personal life? I mean you would really have to know  everything about a person to make such a claim.
 
When all is said  and done, what do you care if someone, who you deem pathetic or at least their shortcomings, blames straight?  How does that effect you exactly?  Do you really think it will help them?  

$traight was great at that though.  Knowing what was good for everyone and telling them how they should be and how pathetic they were if they didn't comply.

[Anonymous]

program vets useing their incarceration as an excuse for their pathetic shortcomings in life????not alot of compassion there....just as all have had some sort of trama....all have made excuses from time to time...so many variables......conscience choices or auto pilot?...vary between the two?....guest picking apart bunny must be perfect....stay clear.... sociopath in the making...isnt it hard having to be right all the time guest??? I pray for the people who have to live around you...PEACE

[Anonymous]

program vets useing their incarceration as an excuse for their pathetic shortcomings in life????not alot of compassion there....just as all have had some sort of trama....all have made excuses from time to time...so many variables......conscience choices or auto pilot?...vary between the two?....guest picking apart bunny must be perfect....stay clear.... sociopath in the making...isnt it hard having to be right all the time guest??? I pray for the people who have to live around you...PEACE

apparently he has a gift.  he can discern ones shortcomings as pathetic or legit.  we should be thanking him for sharing this gift, not condeming him.

 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

[webdiva]

It's easy to blame the world and it's easy to blame $tr8.  But really, after a while you just keep livin.  Obviously, I'm not referrin, here to those who have already left this world, but to those who continue to live and wrestle with their demons.  I'll admit I used $tr8 as an excuse plenty, when I would've been better off not.  On the other hand, numerous serial crimes were committed against me over a 23 month period, during some of the most crucial years of my life, which have had far-reaching and heavy repercussions.  There are legitimate reasons why I struggle and yet there are times when I make excuses too.  Such is life.  Point taken.

Webdiva, I'm so sorry you have suffered so much.   ::kiss::

OH I totally agree and my first response was a emotionally driven, hell all my responses are. My point isn't that people shouldn't make excuses.. plenty do I'm sure.  My point is there is really no way for us to KNOW who is truly suffering and who's laying out a bunch of bull shit in most cases... I choose to take the supportive route rather then assume one is full of pathetic shortcomings. ya know?  

and THANK you my friend.  Although you know the suffering is a blessing in disguise.

[Froderik]

$traight was great at that though. Knowing what was good for everyone and telling them how they should be and how pathetic they were if they didn't comply.

Quite true.

Yeah and that 1st post (from whoever this Guest is who so thoughtfully pointed that out to PA's ex-wife) was rather condescending with the "pathetic shortcomings" comment... fuck that shit and fuck you, you fucking asshole, whoever you are...I hope I don't know you...

[Anonymous]

Guest 1 says: "I'll say it again, it DID affect me in that way. I will never, ever get over my experience in the hellhole I was in. I will never ever forget. But on the same hand, I will never ever go back. Nor will I resolve to live the rest of my life afflicted. Similiarly, if I lost both of my legs I should hope that I would not sit in a wheelchair drunk in my living room watching television because it is all I can do. I would hope that I would continue to live my life to the best of my ability despite that which I have no control over. I cannot begin to speculate about life as a paraplegic, but I would hope that I would have the same desire to LIVE my life that I do today. I would hope that I would make that decision at that point in time. Even then, it is a decision how to play the cards dealt."

What do you do if you analogetically speaking, are this paraplegic and sitting in the wheelchair in a room with the people that paralyzed you? What would you say or do? If you knew they were causing harm to others but you're a paraplegic now, so what would you do? Just sit there? Let them profit from creating paraplegics, knowing full well that you were victimized by them? Seems rather 'egotistical' of you or pompous or something like that. Sure, people have choices to make, but if they make good choices then they should be rewarded, not constantly 'wondering' all the time if people approve of them. There are a lot of side effects of the program that affect you and everyone else, even if you don't realize it. I wonder why you just sit there and let them create more 'paraplegics'.

 

I can tell you right now... I would MUCH rather have been PHYSICALLY injured by losing a limb then to be mentally and emotionally and in some cases physically RAPED as a child for years. HELL YEAH Much easier to deal with.  

Apples and watermelons you are comparing. try again!

[webdiva]

Guest 1 says: "I'll say it again, it DID affect me in that way. I will never, ever get over my experience in the hellhole I was in. I will never ever forget. But on the same hand, I will never ever go back. Nor will I resolve to live the rest of my life afflicted. Similiarly, if I lost both of my legs I should hope that I would not sit in a wheelchair drunk in my living room watching television because it is all I can do. I would hope that I would continue to live my life to the best of my ability despite that which I have no control over. I cannot begin to speculate about life as a paraplegic, but I would hope that I would have the same desire to LIVE my life that I do today. I would hope that I would make that decision at that point in time. Even then, it is a decision how to play the cards dealt."

You assume a lot when you say you hope they have a Desire to live. many of these pathetic people of which you speak do have a desire to live, even people who KILL THEMSELVES have a desire to live.  You do realize that right? They have a desire to live unharmed and safe and loved.  Do you have someone in your life that Loves you? I don't know a Single person who wouldn't desire to live if they could DEAL.  Not everyone is as LUCKY as you with  accomplishing that task I suppose. It does not negate their desire to live a happy life even if they choose to end it.

[Valhalla]

Hmmm...I find it interesting how differently a post can be inferred.

I see that Guest's main point has consistently been about 'choices'.  We all have the potential to decide how we will live our lives or not live them.  Sure we've all been through hell, but whether or not to let it dictate the rest of our lives is up to us.

[Froderik]

pathetic shortcomings

Nice one.

[webdiva]

Hmmm...I find it interesting how differently a post can be inferred.

I see that Guest's main point has consistently been about 'choices'.  We all have the potential to decide how we will live our lives or not live them.  Sure we've all been through hell, but whether or not to let it dictate the rest of our lives is up to us.

Apparently you are the only one... But he blatantly said that the Pathetic Shortcomings ( no judgment there) of some people were merely due to excuses.  As if he could possible KNOW this.  Give me a break.  

And I don't think you perceived the post any different, I think you agree, and others don't.   And you have that right, but, he should be speaking of himself... Its not about US Kim just cuz you were in there with these people does NOT make it a WE thing... You know that right? Sure we can bond and we can come together, BUT its an individual journey and a personal battle for everyone.  It's about ME, I not US when it Comes to something like that!!  

No one should tell me or anyone else on this board what WE  should be doing. NO ONE has been through the same exact hell and even if they were the effects on each person were surely be different so how can you or anyone tell someone not to let THEIR problems dictate THEIR life when it has nothing to do with YOU? It's THEIR life.  

Thats like someone telling me, and its been said before, that I should get over it because I wasn't in straight my brother was.  Where the fuck does someone get off?

Let them suffer in peace! if thats what they need to do to survive, so be it. Who cares?    They shouldn't be judged, criticized or ridiculed for it especially by someone who at least has a CLUE as to the pain they may be dealing with.

IT's simply ignorant and very egotistical.  Had his message been about him and his journey and struggle  i wouldnt have had a problem with it. But it wasn't.  

Like this husband/father.  Who honestly has the balls to say he CHOSE to let his wife rekindle straight (she did it), chose to allow it to eat him up, chose to allow it to ruin his relationship and lose his children.  Anyone? Can you tell me for a fact that was a choice?  that he desired that? That it's fully his fault? I don't think so, nor can you say that about  any other person in regards to their problems.  Cuz plain and simple you don't know you only choose to ASSume.  

Its always easier to point out the faults of other when one thinks they are doing what's good and somehow can't wrap their brain around why all these other people have gone a different route, a route they believe is beneath them and a route they seem to KNOW these people could avoid. No one that i know is  omniscient so I don't see how people can take on such a GOD like mentality.

ramble ramble ramble

*by the way im ASSuming this person is a guy for no reason at all,  i do that with guests for some reason if it's not obvious i wasn't gonna say IT or GUEST the whole time so guest became he, but i really don't know, didnt want to imply anything by that.*

[webdiva]

condescending asshole

even nicer LOL  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: