Author Topic: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs (Read 4259 times)

psy · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2009, 10:38:56 AM »

Quote from: "Guest"

Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0"
How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less.

A couple things

1. religions don't deceptively recruit. people know what they're getting into
2. religions don't have secret practices.
3. religions don't require you to give money, though many recieve donations, or even suggest it. The bible says 10% but nobody does that and nobody is enforcing it. Nobody knows what you put in the collections plate except yourself.
4. religions don't sue people or kill your pets if you piss them off.
5. religions don't practice thought reform (in the lifton sense). What they do on the continuum of influence and persuasion is called "indoctrination".

I could go on and on and on.

Yes there are religious cults, but there are all sorts of other cults as well. "Cult" means three things: origin of the group, structure of the group, and use of thought reform. This can apply to any type of organization. "god" can be substituted for any type of absolute truth/salvation supposedly only available through the group.

I don't think thats quite right. If people want to understand cults they can read any of a dozen books on the subject the most famous being "cults in our midst" my margeret singer.

Actually, that's where I got that information (1994, first edition). Page 7 lists the three elements. Chapter 4, page 96 and on goes into differences between cults and religions and cult apologists. Page 13 lists how cults are not all religious.

FemanonFatal2.0 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2009, 07:56:33 PM »

I think I should reinterate here, that my point was not the operations of a religion, it was of the idiotic concepts and idealogies of said religions.

For instance, Jesus, son of God, allowing himself to be murdered as a sacrafice for the basic nature of humans. Topped off by a rise from the dead and an empty promise that he will return. And only if you convince yourself of these stories you will be saved from the pending doom that is the end of the world.

Yea, I call bullshit on that one folks.

What I don't understand is why people are so afraid to question the authority of an old book written by ancient MEN, not by God. Here's my theory, either the bible is a work of complete fiction created by MEN to psychologically control the masses, or God is one sadistic son of a bitch and we are all doomed.

I think the bible is bullshit and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I don't think that makes me a non-believer or athesist. Personally, I believe what I feel in my heart to be true, not anything anyone told me to believe. I believe in a higher power (or God), and spirits (or angels) and the other side (or heaven) I also believe there are good and bad entities (angels/ demons) just as there are good and bad people. however I DO NOT believe that ANYONE is banished to hell for simply not believing in the ridiculous stories the bible perpertrates. I also don't think hell is some firey furnace of enternal torture, as much as that may satisfy the the corporate punishment types, I think that whole concept is so far from any honest possibility, its simply a scare tactic.

So getting back to the topic, I don't think that an organization that builds their practice on such nonsense should have any athority over someones recovery. and certianly should not require a convert to a powerless and victimy existance in order to do so. My point is the whole conept of AA and futhermore religion itself really doesnt make much sense to me, and I'm surprised how many people are so willing to get sucked into it. I'm not saying it doesn't have a positive effect on some people's lives, or at least keep them in line, I'm just not a fan of mind control being paraded as a public service.

Anonymous · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:59:09 PM »

Nobody cares what any of you think. So why waste your time writing it out? :fuckoff:

Anonymous · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2009, 09:24:38 PM »

Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0"

I think the bible is bullshit and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but I don't think that makes me a non-believer or athesist. Personally, I believe what I feel in my heart to be true, not anything anyone told me to believe. I believe in a higher power (or God), and spirits (or angels) and the other side (or heaven) I also believe there are good and bad entities (angels/ demons) just as there are good and bad people.

Believing in an invisible superhero, angels, demons and fantastic ever-happy after-death-land is sane. UNLIKE believing in the bible. THAT’S crazy

Anonymous · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2009, 09:41:17 PM »

hee-haw! hee-haw!

Anonymous · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2009, 09:10:46 AM »

Quote from: "Guest"

Nobody cares what any of you think. So why waste your time writing it out? :fuckoff:

Judging from the number of views and posts on this thread and the various other AA threads, I'd say more than a few care. You care enough to drop into most of them and tell us how boring or how stupid it is. All you have to do is ignore the threads that deal with the subject of AA. Why is this so difficult for you? Are you learning disabled or something? Should we be pitying you instead of pointing and laughing?

:boycott: :fuckoff: :twofinger: :fuckoff: :twofinger:

Anonymous · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2009, 10:39:46 AM »

Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion? But persecution complexes are fun too, brave warrior.

Of COCK!!!!

Anonymous · « **Reply #37 on:** February 24, 2009, 10:48:08 AM »

Quote from: "Guest"

Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion?

Er, I'd disagree.

OF PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous · « **Reply #38 on:** February 24, 2009, 11:01:28 AM »

Quote from: "nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn"

Quote from: "Guest"
Er, I’d say the trolls point was general mayhem not AA promotion?

Er, I'd disagree.

OF PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. There is a hidden, more profound philosophy in this troll's "shut up, you're a loser " message. After review, I have realized he is doing no less than making a case for attatchment parenting and the electric car.

BOOBIES

Anonymous · « **Reply #39 on:** February 24, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »

Big Brother love AA doubleplusgood

Anonymous · « **Reply #40 on:** March 04, 2009, 10:28:53 AM »

I think he's got some points on the program itself but he's wrong on the disease concept, this has been shown:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news ... olism-gene

psy · « **Reply #41 on:** March 04, 2009, 02:39:48 PM »

Quote from: "ftw"

I think he's got some points on the program itself but he's wrong on the disease concept, this has been shown:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news ... olism-gene

You're not reading the source. You're not reading the researcher's data directly. You're reading a news report on researchers analysis of their own data.

And even if there *were* a propensity to a person drinking, that would *still* not absolve them of their actions. Propensity is not a guarantee of destiny. It would *still* not mean that all those people have a "disease". Picking up a drink is a behavior and a choice.

Anonymous · « **Reply #42 on:** March 04, 2009, 03:03:11 PM »

Alcoholism is not a disease, for God's sake. If you stuck an alcoholic on an island without alcohol - surprise, surprise, he or she will improve. It's a cultural disease, if you like. Blame the West for embracing & celebrating the most destructive drug there is. And so there's no argument, alcohol IS a drug - depressant of the central nervous system. It's the only drug with potentially fatal withdrawal,too.

AA is hoo-hoo.

Anonymous · « **Reply #43 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:02:40 PM »

Quote from: "Shill W."

Alcoholism is not a disease, for God's sake. If you stuck an alcoholic on an island without alcohol - surprise, surprise, he or she will improve. It's a cultural disease, if you like. Blame the West for embracing & celebrating the most destructive drug there is. And so there's no argument, alcohol IS a drug - depressant of the central nervous system. It's the only drug with potentially fatal withdrawal,too.

AA is hoo-hoo.

A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness

try another castle · « **Reply #44 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:00:14 PM »

Hi.

I currently do not have a disease, but I am interested in getting one.

It appears that becoming a lush would be the easiest way to do this. Am I correct? Although, according to 12 step, crossdressing and excessive online gaming also count.

If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations, I would be most appreciative.

Thank you.

Quote

A "Disease's" presence isnt determined through whether or not it can improve or become asymptomatic, especially mental disease or disorder. Are any of you people posting here doctors, by any chance? I think there is some confusion about how the term disease can/should be used vis-a-vis mental illness

Logic dictates that when someone confronts others about their lack of a medical degree, then that must mean that they themselves are doctors, because nobody could possibly be stupid enough to say something that blatantly hypocritical, and then immediately follow up by pimping their own insight without backing it up by demonstrating that they have the authority and credentials to state such a thing.

So... since you are obviously a doctor, and you know what a disease *really* is, do you have any recommendations on the best 12 step disease to have?

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