WHAT DOES ROBERT BROWNING LICHFIELD LOOK LIKE?

[Anonymous]

A reporter (British) wrote that somewhere.  And you believe it?  Lovely.  Got a link to the whole article so I can get my laughs before I go do bed?

[Nihilanthic]

Oh, but of course any source is automatically false unless it agrees with you.

Until the government (or preferrably a lynch mob) goes in there to regulate and provide oversight of these for-profit places, all we have to go by is investigations and reporters.

Why not FIX THAT PROBLEM so we KNOW they're okay?

The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author

[Kiwi]

On 2004-11-15 22:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"A reporter (British) wrote that somewhere.  And you believe it?  Lovely.  Got a link to the whole article so I can get my laughs before I go do bed? "

Here is the Tranquility Bay article, laugh away.

Most journalists record their interviews.  British libel law is the toughest in the world.  You just have to prove someone said something derogatory and the onus is on the the defendant to prove it is true.  There is no First Amendment.  No journalist would accuse someone of child abuse in a national publication unless they could back it up.

Of course Kay could sue.  But then WWASP probably wont be making that mistake again in a hurry.

[Anonymous]

...if Amberly is the saint you like to try to make her why was she gone after bringing 2 students on in direct insubordination leaving them in such a sistuation?finally I never agreed to pay for the girls total care and for that matter I never agreed to pay for the $15,000 but I did so after the fact after Amberly ran away after creating the sistuation to try to help?But what part of ?I am not responsiable for the actions of Amberly as she was breaking company and direct administrative orders bringing these two young adults on my campus with out my knowledge and they were adults on their own time and why would I be responsiable for them don?t you understand?...they were there without my permission and consent or even knowledge.

Like it or not, you are responsible for what happens at your facility. If someone trips and falls on my property, they can sue me for damages. It doesn't sound like Amberley was responsible for what happened to the girl. Did she take her out drinking? Did she bash her head? Sounds like the responsible party in that scenario is Kenneth.... and of course, the teens. What was Kenneth's 'consequence'? What was the young man's 'consequence'? And these were graduates of the program? Out drinking and getting into fights? Which program did they graduate? How did Amberley come to know these kids, in order that she might invite them there? Why didn't Joe alert you? If it was such a major act of insubordination, why didn't Joe send them away while she was gone, and deal with the possible wrath later?
Talk about passin the buck. So, the simple question, in case you missed it... is what was Kenneth's involvement, what was his consequence, and where is he now?

[Anonymous]

This forum and the Salem witch hunt trials have very much in common...the truth is subjective to your views and the facts don?t matter...Just as the children claimed there was adults participating in witch-craft in Salem. The self-righteous writers here along with the press grab their pitchforks and fall in line with the ignorant acting out of hearsay from highly questionable sources who are typically highly motivated to manipulate the sistuation...Its like the sweeping sunshine story...I hadn?t read that till I read it here its by a guy who told me he knew Bruce Harris very well as a friend so obviously I am critical... What unbelievable manipulative crap and anyone that would give credence to such self serving prater and salacious writing by this member of the press are themselves deserving of the propaganda that is spewed here (the kids always had a bottle of water with there personal name on it, in their possession and they were to keep it with them always and even got consequences if they forgot it so to try to say we were condoning some girl not getting water is ludicrous)... again "I don?t have a life so I will save something...Kids according to this reporter are being abused so they must be and lets burn their houses and hang-um high from the nearest tree"...It doesn?t matter if there was actual abuse or not or if the truth is radically different then what is represented because, "the cause of saving abused kids is good" and I had it tough as a kid therefore it must be true so the ends must justify the means. It doesn?t matter that 95 good people lost their jobs and their reputations and lives defamed and slandered all over the world and 200 kids were robbed of a great experience that was changing their lives for the better...History is complete with situations such as this and in time the truth will show this to be the case that fruits are the only means that we can judge such situations long term...false allegations of people like Sue Flowers (Denied by her own daughter to the judge) was made trying to get rights she had legally lost in the U.S by manipulating illegally the porbesieto system of Costa Rica...that Bruce Harris was nothing about kids but everything about getting publicity for a cause that he claimed to espouse all the while participating in the very deeds he claimed to protect minors from (he has now been arrested for child prostitution with a boy in Honduras)
Mr. Vargas is no longer even a tempory fiscal and is an embarrassment and stands for everything bad in Latin American governmental abuse of power and will soon be facing such charges. Finally there is Amberly who changes her story as often as Imelda Marcos did shoes. Like those shoes her story is changed to match the outfit she wears.
The players will continue to be exposed as for what they are and did and I will continue to tell the truth to anyone who will listen...The facts about the truth here isn?t quite as salacious as the accusers version but that?s only because it doesn?t sell in the Media quite as well. Who wants to hear about a dispute with an emotionally unstable employee who was mistakenly given a high position that gave her some measure of credibility that she never deserved or earned by her own admission. When they can read or hear about the staff and "the evil owner" who sat up nights devising ways to supposedly abuse kids...Again the logic here is so flawed its almost laughable...if I was just this greedy guy "why would I abuse the very source of my income and create the demise of my own school and thus income I had worked so hard to create."
The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors. The files are all there and are open for all to see. I will continue to say as I did almost 2 years ago the truth will slowly be reveled and the players will all be seen for who and what they are.

[Anonymous]

Narvin,

Why won't you address the questionable acts of your employee, Kenneth Wilson?  A man with alot of responsibility in your company.  A man that works with teens yet takes them out drinking.  A man who hid his wrongs about this situation and almost cost an 18 year old graduate of WWASPS her life.  A man that lied about what happened to her so that he wouldn't get caught.  A man that is now still working with teens and making them accountable for their actions.

An employer is responsible for all their employees.  You hired them!  Stand up and be accountable!  You can't just make money in a business, you also have to take responsibility for their actions.  Oh, forgot, all your corporations are Limited Liability Corps., no personal liability!

You drill into the kids heads that they are not victims.  Practice what you preach and stop blaming others for your actions.

[BuzzKill]

Narvin,
You've still not answered a single question put to you.
Know matter how much to wish to, you can't lay the weight and blame for what wwasp is and does on Amberly's back.
I feel compelled to point out; once again, all points and questions have been ignored and you have attempted to make others the issue.
And by the by - I can vouch for the accuracy of the poster's account of the grad's assault/ rape and Amberly's resignation. I was still involved with Dundee and still on the BBS when all that was happening. I remember the mom's postings, and the replies.
I knew well before this event that Amberly was resigning. I and others were aware she stayed on past her expected final day, only to be of help and assistance. I am aware you "fired" her long after she had left your employment and was already working elsewhere. I recall the Mom's upset that her daughter had been denied medical care b/c of Kenny's actions. I recall it was Amberly, who upon her return from her week end off, and seeing the girl's condition, insisted she get to a hospital. I remember  how it went down. I am not saying Amberly is Joan of Arch - but I do think she saved this girls life. And it is a very legitimate question to ask Where you and why didn't you do something?
The idiot anon who says I won't listen; and I can't be swayed is wrong. I am very able and willing to change my mind if I feel I have been mistaken. After all, I once believed and argued wwasp was a good program. I have since heard many arguments to the contrary; and I have found them credible; and I have changed my mind as a result.
I believe these kids. I find the persistence, consistency and quantity of the accounts of abuse and neglect very credible. I think anyone who can ignore this is lacking ability to think rationally and independently; or has a powerful monetary motive to look away.
Really Narvin, I'll listen, if you'll get real and honest and answer the questions asked of you.
But this Bitchen and Moanin and Whinen about how you've been wronged is just a waste of space.
 ::  ::

[Anonymous]

You say that Amberly was not qualified for her position.  Please let us know what Joe Atkin's resume reads that he was qualified to be in his position.  He was not just the accountant, he was Director of this facility at times.

[Anonymous]

You of all people should not try and discredit Bruce Harris.  His credentials and what he has done for Latin America are amazing.  He made a mistake, held himself accountable and took the consaquences for his actions.

You on the other hand, went to Costa Rica, had a prostitute named Flory, divorced your wife and kids in Utah, and married her!

Be careful of your glass house.  Maybe you should just drop the stones that you are throwing!

[Anonymous]

Narvin, you talk about water bottles.  We carried water bottles with us most of the time at Dundee.  They were discusting.  We were in the jungle where bacteria grows quickly.  We had the same water bottles for weeks.  When a staff returned from outside of Dundee and happen to be carrying a water bottle we eyed it and wondered who would get it. When we went to well water, we would just fill these gross empty bottles with that water.  They were never washed in boiling water.  No wonder we all got sick. I know that you never carried the same water bottle for weeks.

[Carey]

Its like the sweeping sunshine story...I hadn?t read that till I read it here its by a guy who told me he knew Bruce Harris very well as a friend so obviously I am critical... What unbelievable manipulative crap and anyone that would give credence to such self serving prater and salacious writing by this member of the press are themselves deserving of the propaganda that is spewed here (the kids always had a bottle of water with there personal name on it, in their possession and they were to keep it with them always and even got consequences if they forgot it so to try to say we were condoning some girl not getting water is ludicrous

What reporter are you talking about here in this quote?  Also, I witnessed the girls standing in one spot amimlessly sweeping back and forth with their brooms.  They were not cleaning the sidewalks.  And, there was not one bottle of water anywhere in sight. And, a girl did ask for water and none was given.

Now if you are talking about some other reporter, other than Varney, and some other sweeping incident, then no response is necessary.  But if you are talking about the incident I witnessed...then let me say, I was there Narvin, and you weren't.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-11-15 22:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Cherish Wisdom - What is your personal experience of the WWASPS schools?



Did you read somewhere that a kid was kept on their face for 18 months or that Ken Kay bragged about that?



Hey, why don't you throw in some more figments of your imagination and say the kid had to eat bugs off the floor, or that the kid only took showers every six months, or that the kid atrophied from lack of movement or died from rats eating him/her?  



Are you a science fiction writer?  "

Nice jab.  *I'm* a science fiction writer.  It pays the bills.  It gives people recreation for their money.

The jab can't distract from the *fact* that Narvin admitted that he did not take steps to ensure the water at Dundee was not contaminated with local fecal coliform bacteria, even though he knew third world countries have water quality problems and *chose* to locate in a third world country and have kids brought there against their will.

Narvin thought it was perfectly okay to admit to this and that it wasn't a problem because, "It was mostly just the new kids who got sick."

Even if you believe Narvin is an absolute paragon of truth, that's child neglect and he's condemned out of his own mouth.

Where there's child neglect he admits to, any reasonable person has to believe that there are probably things that he is "spinning" to sound better for him---that probably where his account differs just a big from the allegations, at least some of those allegations are true.

Particularly, he says he "ate the same food the kids ate"----well, there are questions of *how much* the kids on the various levels got, and what supplements or fresh stuff Narvin and other staff got that the kids didn't, and whether all these kids with vomiting and diarhea from the contaminated water (and food prepared with that water) were actually absorbing enough nutrition before they *lost* that food to not be malnourished.

Does *anyone* believe that there wasn't a lower level kid there who would *gladly* have traded his own plate of dinner for Narvin's?  If you do, I can offer you a really great deal: there's this bridge, see, and....

But regardless of the food issue, the water issue is a slam dunk, and it's *very* telling that Narvin didn't and doesn't think sick kids is a problem.

It's horrible, it's callous, it's neglectful.

Would you trust this man to raise a puppy?  I wouldn't.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

***The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors.


Are people to assume that the 'success' of your program is incumbent of denying the following basic needs and rights- form St of Utah Core Rules- which are extremely lax to begin with.
If not, then how do you justify it?

2. A minimum of sixty square feet per consumer shall be provided in a multiple occupant bedroom. Storage space will not be counted.

7. Consumers shall be allowed to decorate and personalize bedrooms with respect for other residents and property.

3. Each bathroom shall be properly equipped with toilet paper, towels, soap, and other items required for personal hygiene.

5. Bathrooms shall meet a minimum ratio of one toilet, one lavatory, and one tub or shower for each six residents.

A. One staff shall be responsible for food service. If this person is not a professionally qualified dietitian, regularly scheduled consultation with a professionally qualified dietitian shall be obtained. Meals served shall be from dietitian approved menus.

5. to ensure that the program has adequate staffing as identified on the organizational chart,

6. to ensure that the program has general liability insurance, professional liability insurance as appropriate, vehicle insurance for transport of consumers, and fire insurance, and

C. No management person shall authorize or use, and no staff member shall use, any method designed to humiliate or frighten a consumer.

D. No management person shall authorize or use, and no staff member shall use nor permit the use of physical restraint with the exception of passive physical restraint. Passive physical restraint shall be used only as a temporary means of physical containment to protect the consumer, other persons, or property from harm. Passive physical restraint shall not be associated with punishment in any way.

a. Time-out or seclusion is only used when a child's behavior is disruptive to the child's ability to learn to participate appropriately, or to function appropriately with other children or the activity. It shall not be used for punishment or as a substitute for other developmentally appropriate positive methods of behavior management.

c. If a child is placed in time out or seclusion more than twice in any twenty-four hour period, a review is conducted by the clinical professional to determine the suitability of the child remaining in the program.

d. Any one time-out or seclusion shall not exceed 4 hours in duration.

8. the right to be treated with dignity,

9. the right to communicate by telephone or in writing with family, attorney, physician, clergyman, and counselor or case manager except when contraindicated by the licensed clinical professional,

13. statement of maximum sanctions and consequences, reviewed and approved by the Office of Licensing.

The program shall have policies and procedures designed to prevent or control infectious and communicable diseases in the facility in accordance with local, state and federal health standards.

[Anonymous]

***The facts are I never did and there is over 100 test per staff in each of the staffs personnel files that was mandated by myself in nightly training to insure the staff was treating the kids with respect and proper policy and procedure accepted and used in every state in the union in reference to the accepted guidelines of the care of Minors.

Just because someone can answer the same multiple choice questions on rules in your handbook day after day does not mean that they are properly trained. The tests are a farce, and your employees know it. For example, Mr. Wilson could have written on a test that it was against the "rules" to hide kids in the woods in South Carolina when the state came to inspect claims of overcrowding, but he still followed orders to do it, and laughed about it later.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-11-14 08:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am a parent that had a child in the program and have talked personally with at least 50 "students" that were in a WWASPS facility.  Many of them were graduates.  I don't post much but this is a very important topic.  Probably the most important one.  People calling our children and other young adults liars!



For the parents (or WWASPS PR department)that are saying that the quotes that Buzz Kill has posted are grabbed from the internet, you are wrong.  These are from sworn statements.  There are many of these statements taken from former "students" that are out there for you to read.  These young adults have nothing to gain by telling their story except to be heard and save others from going through what they went through.  They are out of the hands of WWASPS and want all to hear what happened to them.  Many don't speak until they are 18 and can't be thrown back to these facilities by their "kool-aid drinking" parents.



I think that a new thread should be started with only statements from former "students" and/or parents that have talked with them with direct quotes.  Then all of you can read them and sit back in judgement.  For those of you that don't want to hear the truth about what happened to them, all you can do is call them liars.  You can't even comment on what they say.  It was their experience and that is that.  "My experience of this is...."  Sound familiar from your seminars? Pretty sad.



If you really are a parent and not someone that is trying to defend people like Narvin, just sit back and listen.  There are many of us out there that talk with these young adults about their experiences.  They need to be heard.  Many of them can't talk with their parents because they don't believe them or they are so guilty for sending them, that they can't admit it.  We admitted we made a mistake putting our children in the hands of liars and we are working side by side with them to let them be heard.



My child and many others that were in the hands of Narvin have been directed to this thread.  They read what he writes and because they are free now, would like to say...He is the liar!!



Many wrote sworn statments after Dundee closed and Narvin was arrested so that their story could be told to the authorities.  Strange that the only ones that were heard after the closing were the ones that Narvin hand picked.( One of which, a graduate from Dundee, today is back on the streets selling drugs)  Many students were willing to go back down to Costa Rica and tell their story.  They are still waiting.  Strange how things get shoved under the rug in countries like this.  Now he is back, trying to clear the air so that he can reopen this facility. "

Only 50?  And of those 50, how many of them admitted to destroying property while the staff had to watch?  How many of the 50 were sent to Dundee for being honest?  Go back down to Costa Rica to tell their story?  You bet they will, they have to keep up the lie for mom and dad.