psy

[Anonymous]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

It is not phoney baloney compassion.  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life?  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?  

You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.

Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.

You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.

Torturer, we have proof. Psy survived benchmark, and can post about the treatment of it's prisoners. That's proof, you horrible  human being.

You can't set up a "thought reform" prison, based on degrading and destroying the mental processes and emotional well being of a kid, and then claim no responsibility when the kid commits suicide as a result of their "restructured brain."

YOU don't want to admit the truth, as it implicates you in murder. But, outside of YOUR cult, it's not to hard "convincing people" of what is only too obvious.

ps. a mother was put in jail for forcing her 18 year old daughter to work as a stripper. Your kind will be too, someday.

You need to work on your people skills.

Just out of curiosity, did you know George and his family?

[TheWho]

True enough. There is no more certain bar against enlightenment than contempt prior to investigation. But the suicide rate in TC/LGAT style programs is something around 5 - 20 times the national average. This is worthy of investigation.

Not too convinced of your statistics but I agree that it is worth investigating.  What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts.  If we don’t find out the school caused the suicide then we should not make the connection our selves.
A simple “Georgeâ€

[Anonymous]

But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.

Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.

Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason?

It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish

[Anonymous]

But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.

Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.

Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason?

It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish

You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.

[Ursus]

What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts.

I think one of the facts is that George died by the bridge and no one is disputing that fact.  What exactly is the problem with including his last name in the memorial?

You still haven't answered me, Who:  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

[TheWho]

What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts.

I think one of the facts is that George died by the bridge and no one is disputing that fact.  What exactly is the problem with including his last name in the memorial?

You still haven't answered me, Who:  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

Yes, I agree lets stick with what we know.. "George died by the bridge"  I had a member of my extended family die this way, but not someone close to me.  It seems this manner of death brings solitude.  This may be viewed as secrecy to those who have never been through or have known others who have had a family member suffer this way.



...

[psy]

Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.

It is not phoney baloney compassion.  Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life?  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.

How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?  

You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.

Well.  Here are the facts: George was already suicidal.  He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar.  How do I know this, as well as his name?  Jayne Longnecker told me when I interviewed her back in Nov of 06 (so much for patient confidentiality. or student confidentiality, or whatever...)

Yup.  He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help.  He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts).  He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved.  He didn't.  Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in.  They told parents I have interviewed that they had qualified counselors on staff and 24 hour supervision (yeah, I got video tape) and all that jazz.  They told my parents the same.  They lied.

If they had told the truth it would have been something like "we hire a bunch of junkies straight outta rehab cuz it's cheap labor and costs a hell of a lot less than paying staff that actually graduated high school, much less college.  Our staff can't probably even spell your kid's disorder but will do their best to 'treat' it as an addiction."  If you're a parent, I dare you to go do some background checks on some of the staff, then ask yourself where the hell your 70k/year is going.

[dishdutyfugitive]

is benchmark 70K a year?

[TheWho]

So we can conclude that Benchmark did not cause the boy to become suicidal, but they clearly didnt do much (or enough) to help him.  As far as staff is concerned.. are you sure that none of them has completed high school and they are all addicted to heroin?

This is where some parents question the credibility here.  Personally I find it hard to believe,  how did you verify that they did not complete high school or the heroin?

It is statements like these that lead the reader to believe you want to place a memorial for George, not out of respect for George, but out of disrespect for Benchmark.  Georges death seems to be an opportunity to further ones cause.



...

[psy]

You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.

So you think I'm using him as a political pawn?  A symbol?  A rallying cry?

No.  I'm just trying to prevent other kids I don't know from becoming dead ones I do.  George may have been the only death at Benchmark itself (that I know of), but he was not exactly the only one from Benchmark to ever pull it off.  Seth H. was another one who killed himself shortly after program.  Program used his testimony on their advertising despite this.  He was a "success story".  (Who is getting used as a pawn now.  Benchmark makes money off these kids.  I don't.  I was one of them.)  His brother was in program with me, I did know him and I knew he did love his brother (and talked about him all the time)

No, I didn't know George.  I wish I had.  I wish I could have been a friend to him.  I wish I had the opportunity to talk his parents about what a dangerous situation he was in, maybe get him some legitimate therapy.  Suicide attempts were not taken seriously at Benchmark, usually dismissed as "manipulations".  While i'm sure this might be the case in some situations, it is negligent to dismiss any attempt or talk about suicide as such.  Negligence has consequences.  There are reasons why unlicensed persons are not permitted to practice psychology.

Benchmark advertises to treat psychiatric conditions.  They misrepresent their staff qualifications.  They behave recklessly with those who are already vulnerable.  They believe they can handle conditions because they are told that the catch-all Benchmark treatment method works wonders.  It's dogma, not psychiatric science.  The responsibility for his death lies with Benchmark, not me, and not George.  In my opinion, his death was more murder than suicide.

Is it possible that Benchmark did help him and it just wasn't enough?  It would go against everything i've seen, heard about, and personally experienced.  Depression, or anything for that matter, was treated with the exact same methodology as the addicts, schizophrenics, bulimics, and ADHD kids.  They tell these kids they are powerless over their problems (and need program).  With a suicidally depressed person starts believing that, it's tantamount to a death sentence.

[psy]

is benchmark 70K a year?

55k/year plus expenses (revolving fund, etc...) roughly equates to 70k a year.

[Botched Programming]

What percentage of the childs tuition goes in Who's pocket???

[psy]

So we can conclude that Benchmark did not cause the boy to become suicidal, but they clearly didnt do much (or enough) to help him.  As far as staff is concerned.. are you sure that none of them has completed high school and they are all addicted to heroin?

Why don't you ask for yourself.  Jayne admitted to me that some of the counselors still don't have High School diplomas and the fact that most of them are "recovering" junkies isn't exactly a state secret.  Jayne claims it gives them "real world experience".

This is where some parents question the credibility here.  Personally I find it hard to believe,  how did you verify that they did not complete high school or the heroin?

Well.  While I was in program they told me.  They were particular proud of their "war stories".  I'm sure some weren't exactly proud that they didn't have high school diplomas but they seemed to be quite convinced it was unnecessary to function as counselors.  Jayne also admitted the high school thing later when I interviewed her In Nov of 06.

If I'm lying, why doesn't Jayne Longnecker just sue me for libel?  I'd love to be able to grill her and other staff on the stand, present evidence, and prove these things in court.  I've been practically screaming "PLEASE SUE ME" but she just won't do it.  Ask yourself why.

It is statements like these that lead the reader to believe you want to place a memorial for George, not out of respect for George, but out of disrespect for Benchmark.

No.  If anybody put a plaque up, and I had anything to say about it, it would simply be his name, and dates or birth and death.  That being said, in methsville California it would probably last ten seconds before somebody ripped it off and sold it for scrap.

Georges death seems to be an opportunity to further ones cause.

Well.  I can't prove to you that my motivations are sincere.  Perhaps that's why you chose to question me on this.  What I don't do is make a buck off dead kids' testimonials (like Seth H.)

What about you?  What's your cause?  Who do you work for?  Why not tell us all here.  It's not like it's a name or anything.

[Anonymous]

But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.

Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.

Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.

Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.

Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason?

It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish

You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.

That's pretty rich for someone who advocates abducting, imprisoning, (and torturing) human beings for profit to accuse a civillian of treating people like invetory. YOU LITTERALLY TRANSFORM PEOPLE INTO INVENTORY, BOUGHT AND SOLD BY THEIR PARENTS

How the hell would i know of him until i found about him on this forum? Do you know every person in the world? Do you know every person who died in the holocaust, or in the genocide of the Native Americans?

Would starting a memorial in their honour with dates, the nature of the death, whom was responisble, and how, be "tuning them into inventory"?
Why would there be no controvesy over that, yet controversy over this?


Psy, it you put up a memoial give details. It's not fair to the kid not to. He deserves his story told.

.

[TheWho]

You wanna back that statement up with some independently gathered statistics? Aahh... that's right. There are none, because industry members know that such statistics would likely show the "Fornits side" of the story to be more accurate. With the money they have, if such statistics could be produced, they would be (but they can't).

We can all speculate on what the outcome of the study would be, but none of us know.  Companies are not going to fund a study unless they know what they are going to do with the results, so there needs to be some sort of motivation to have the study done.
As it stands today the industry is doing well.  The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success, so how would a clinical study benefit anyone?
I think the competition between schools and programs (the struggle for market share) would have to dictate the need to perform a study to show better performance.  The schools could use this data to sway parents to their program and gain an advantage over their competing schools.
But until such time as there are too many schools and too few kids then I don’t see anyone paying for clinical studies.

Well. I can't prove to you that my motivations are sincere. Perhaps that's why you chose to question me on this. What I don't do is make a buck off dead kids' testimonials (like Seth H.)

I believe you,psy, and have always thought you were fair and did the right thing.  I have a hard time when people assume a child took their life because of a specific event.  Kids suffer a long time and struggle with many issues before most of them succeed in taking their own life.  For any of us to say it was because his girlfriend broke up with him, or a staff member at Benchmark, or some guy on the street screaming at him and calling him a loser or his parents last phone call was the last straw is a stab in the dark at best…we don’t know.
I find it hard to swallow that everytime a child takes his life, that has attended a program, then the program was automatically at fault.  Kids have been committing suicide long before programs started springing up and many kids show up at the schools doorstep with a history of attempts.

What about you? What's your cause? Who do you work for? Why not tell us all here. It's not like it's a name or anything.

I have told my story many times here and why I post here.  I had a daughter attend a TBS and thought I could contribute and add a long needed balance to this forum.

Someday when the industry gets cleaned up a little more and some of the anger subsides we will all get together and have a big party and talk about old times here on fornits, but for now, I think it is best to stay anonymous.


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