psy

[stina]

Shit, I actually have some sympathy for these people. I just lost my best beloved dog. She got clipped on the road, probably running deer late one night. On the one hand, I was the one to let her out and I didn't miss her and go looking for her when I shut down the house. If I had just noticed and called her she would have come. She was that good a dog. It was my fault and I'll never forget it and I don't take offence at all when neighbours tell the story as a cautionary tale to other dog owners.

But she rarely wandered off in her 5 years, never in the most recent ones. So why should I think to check and see if she had that night? These are mollifying truths, but still I know I didn't miss her, wasn't paying attention and that's why she's gone from me.

I'm so so sorry to hear about your baby, I was there in 2001. Different scenario but I still hold myself responsible. I could tell she wasn't feeling well and just figured it would pass, covered her up with a blanket, gave her a kiss and went to the bar. The next day she was in quarantine at Helen Woodward's animal hospital and her kidneys and liver failed and she was gone within a week. They never could tell me what killed her, but it was some kind of toxin, and I hate that she was in that much pain and I hate that maybe I could have spared it.

Anyway, I don't want to go on and on, but I understand. And not having any children yet, my animals ARE my babies. My heart goes out to you.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Radio Fornits.

[TheWho]

........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.

The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree.  The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide.  I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death.  We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc.  It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job.



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[psy]

........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.

The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree.  The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide.  I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death.

There is such a thing as criminal negligence.  Whether that particular legal term applies to this case is irrelavant in my mind.  It's the concept i'm interested in.  In my opinion, the parents would have a cakewalk if they decided to sue for wrongful death.  Benchmark, both in my personal experience and with people i've interviewed, misrepresents itself to get poeple in.

They'll say anything for enrollment, essentially, even throwing caution to the wind when they know they can't handle them.  Or maybe they don't know and truly believe that their Synanon, LifeSpring, and est derived "therapy (whoops we can't call it that)" truly works.  The only difference is the le  When I interviewed Jayne and asked her about psychologists she stated that they tended to be "in their heads" (as opposed to from the "heart"/"gut").  I was called in my head a lot since I am intelligent and was taught to use my head as well as my heart.  What "in your head" (very negative connotation) means is to let go of rational thought and let emotion overwhelm you (a process that is aided by the LGAT exercises and the overall milieu

"In your head" is a phrase you can quote directly out of "cults in our midst" (page 177 of the first edition, near the bottom).  It's quite common in programs.  I've heard it used in straight, AARC, and Benchmark among other places.  The common denominator would seem to be synanon but with all the staff cross-pollination of program DNA it's hard to know where the phrase originated (could be scientology, which est "borrowed" heavily from).  No. I'm not crazy.  Google "you're in your head"
(copy this into address bar:  "http://www.google.com/search?q=%22you're+in+your+head%22"  )
and look what you find.  When it's used in this context (as a synonym for "too much thinking"), it's a good bet you'll find a cult.

Examples from just the first page of google:

New age:
http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/echbod/part13.shtml
More new age, including "The Secret":
http://www.actingintuitive.com/articles/AM.8.07.htm
Article quoted from Jeff colbs by a person believing in the "Law of Attraction" from "The Secret":
http://swimpupstream.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ction.html
above is an article written by Jeff Combs which, when googled leads to this LGAT trash:
http://goldenmastermind.com/gms_home.asp?bhcp=1
Another self help article here:
http://www.womanlinks.com/index.php?opt ... 6&Itemid=0
leading to a pay service for counseling

And it goes on and on and on.  Cults load language.  It's like Newsspeak.

What do all these things have in common. They all offer great reward, sucess in life, careers, etc... if you just turn off your thinking.  Desperate people do desperate things, and you'd be hard pressed to find a more desperate population to prey on than terrified parents with troubled kids.

The point of all this is that Jayne longnecker, becuase of her cult derived believes sincerely believes that her approach is better than psychology and the only way to save the kids (or, she knows it's a total failure but makes a lot of money).  It's not a question of whether she is a fool or a knave, but rather whether she is fooled or a knave.

We don’t know what triggered it…

According to multiple students who were there at the time the primary cause was Joelle Walter's harsh treatment of George just prior to his suicide.  Yes.  You're right.  There's no way to definitively prove exactly what made the kid decide to kill himself, but people who knew him...

[Ursus]

"In your head" was used during my time at Hyde as well, and that pre-dates Straight, but not Synanon.  My guess is that it may have originally come out of AA.

Hyde "practices" psychology with no psychologists on staff.  In fact, Gauld hated psychologists.  I think he took particular pleasure in skewering the small handful of parents who were psychologists or psychiatrists during family meetings.  Those families' time at Hyde often did not end well, unless they were of the ilk who thought LGATs were comprised of emotional growth material.

I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate.  In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know."  They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.

[Oz girl]

a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them? They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.

[TheWho]

I don't know you.


You think I'm going to share these personal details in a public forum?

Death and greif are a peronsal matter.

Wait, correction, unless you're a teenager who doesn't know any better or have the experience to know proper  protocol you can bugger off. If you are a teenager that doesn't know any better (I've been there) or a genuine person who happened to misphrase the question ask yourself the following:


Would you share that information if you were in my shoes?


1. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members suicide was placed in the papers?

2. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members cause of death (suicide) was made public information?


3. What interest do you have in whether or not the local paper had a little piece about my family members accomplishmens in  their life? Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.


I'm trying to be fair but you're really pushing it.

You want details ?

Pony up and put some skin in the game.


And if you are genuine, welcome aboard. PM me and we'll talk.

I had an extended family member and a member of a family that is close to me take their own lives.  I can remember that they both opted not to place an obituary write up in the paper saying that they committed suicide or that they had died.  I dont think anyone is looking for any details,like names and numbers, just whether it was in the paper or not and whether it was handled differently, DDF.  
I have seen people die in automobile accidents and they are talked about in the paper (Obits), with a little about thier life and how they liked math or science and were good at sports etc....but you typically dont see this with suicides (adults or children)....  since you experienced this 3 times you may have noticed this also.


...

[TheWho]

Psy,  you are much more tied into Benchmark and the background on “Georgeâ€

[psy]

"In your head" was used during my time at Hyde as well, and that pre-dates Straight, but not Synanon.  My guess is that it may have originally come out of AA.

Hyde "practices" psychology with no psychologists on staff.  In fact, Gauld hated psychologists.  I think he took particular pleasure in skewering the small handful of parents who were psychologists or psychiatrists during family meetings.  Those families' time at Hyde often did not end well, unless they were of the ilk who thought LGATs were comprised of emotional growth material.

Like Anne S. Hall. (Ottowa5)

I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate.  In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know."  They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.

Well.  There is the possibility that the vast majority of them don't know and just have a really fucked up concept (they learn) of how to go about "helping" people.  My only question is whether the bunch on top are true believers.  I'm pretty sure the low-on-totem-pole staff are just cult members like any other.  Afaik, none of them have any background in psychology and hence, no concept of what therapy is.  All the easier to convince them that the Benchmark way is best way.  By the time they figure it out... well...  Benchmark has an extremely high staff turnover rate.

[psy]

a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?

If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.

They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.

Well.  Here's the issue.  Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what.  Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful.  What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past.  I can understand that.  It's really their choice.  That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that.  According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.

That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget.  I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck".  But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth.  Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).

[psy]

Psy,  you are much more tied into Benchmark and the background on “Georgeâ€

[Ursus]

I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate.  In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know."  They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.

Well.  There is the possibility that the vast majority of them don't know and just have a really fucked up concept (they learn) of how to go about "helping" people.  My only question is whether the bunch on top are true believers.  I'm pretty sure the low-on-totem-pole staff are just cult members like any other.  Afaik, none of them have any background in psychology and hence, no concept of what therapy is.  All the easier to convince them that the Benchmark way is best way.  By the time they figure it out... well...  Benchmark has an extremely high staff turnover rate.

Hmmm.  Guess I wasn't really thinking about individuals on staff.  I was thinking more along the lines of the culpability of the institution as a whole.  There is an important difference.  Of course, there are individuals within an institution like this who may have had additional culpability in a situation like this, but it is primarily the institution who should be held accountable.  George's parents did not contract out his care to particular individuals at Benchmark, they signed a contract with Benchmark.  

It is when particular individuals go beyond the pale that they get tacked onto a case like this as additional parties.  But the primary responsible party would still be Benchmark.  

It is Benchmark's responsibility to keep the excesses of their staff in check.  It is Benchmark's responsibility to properly screen their clientele so that these kinds of fatalities do not occur.

Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar...
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in.

Your quote above is why I said , "They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge."

As a bit of an aside, why do you think people have to sign a waiver stating that they don't have any psychological problems prior to taking the Landmark Forum?  Too many lawsuits stemming from people having their craniums reamed by the excesses of est, and the consequences thereof?  Mmm?

[dishdutyfugitive]

It's not benchmarks responsibility to be responsible.

Their job is to:

collect checks

Hire derelicts.

dodge bullets when real people call bullshit.


Be thankful you're not a Benchmark employee.

How could you sleep at night?

[TheWho]

Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.

I missed this on my first read.  This is what I have experienced also, DDF.  If a family member loses a child to suicide there is typically no mention of it in the news papers.  Families treat it a little different, as did the families I knew.  The only reason I brought this up is because there are some people who didn’t understand why the programs did not go public with the details of a child’s death if it was one in which they took their own life.  Many here accused the schools of being too secretive about children’s deaths (others accused the schools of covering it up) when it is actually the parents of the child who don’t want the story published in the paper (in many cases), so the school respects their wishes.

When my daughter was attending ASR there was a recent graduate who took his own life and the school asked permission to make their letter public (The letter the boys parents wrote to ASR).  The parents asked for discretion but stated that the letter could be read within the school to students and faculty/parents.  I was present when the letter to the other students was read to them.



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[dishdutyfugitive]

Welcome to the Revolution.


The revolution will not be televised.


KFNT