lon woodberrry- this is the enemy. And they're striking back

[TheWho]

When you mention that 2 kids died in SUWS or when others mention that a child died in another program I am curious as to what type of message you are trying to send?  Is this to bait someone into saying "Oh, 2 kids dying isnt that bad?"  Is it to say SUWS is safe because there have been only 2?  or is it bad because 2 kids is higher than normal?

There are probably 10 times that many that die in church each year... or consider the number of kids that die in car accidents.. or commit suicide in their homes or abused and killed at school or die of drug overdoses.


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I dont know what faith it is that the who practices but if i were the  priest of a church that was directly responsible for the death of 2 parishoners i would not be using the argument that more die in car accidents. But the original point i was making which you have illustrated with clarity is that even those wno argue in favour of this industry often dont deny the things that normal citizens find alarming. Their view is just so warped that they see noting abnormal about it. So Natsap should be encouraged to have parents talk about the lifesaving incarceration of their kids. Let them describe in detail as well  the "workshops" that "heal" their kids. Even if congress dont do much hopefully american parents will get a detailed understanding of what goes on and will see it is not a normal boarding school like environment with therapy

OzGirl, I agree 100%, the priest should be but on trial if he was responsible, but my point is that we shouldnt stop going to church because of that or maybe go to a different church.  We shouldnt take the position that all churchs should be closed down.

Also agree that NATSAP should talk about the length of time their child would be away for and the expected participation of the family... all schools should be preparing the family and child for their stay and as you mentioned they would see that TBS's are not your normal boarding schools.



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[Anonymous]

Those suggestions are insufficient.
Parents need to ask very pointed questions.

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I was going to say, parents should find out more before deciding to trust a program to provide therapy for their kids. There's a pretty thorough list of questions like these to ask listed at the end of "Help at Any Cost."

[TheWho]

Wherever someone dies unexpectedly, and where said death could easily have been prevented, one assesses the issue of accountability.

When a kid is enrolled in a wilderness program, and preventable harm and/or even death occurs to this child, one tends to hold -- barring unforeseen "acts of God" -- the operators of said wilderness program accountable.

Obfuscation of that fact, by citing deaths elsewhere that have nothing whatsoever to do with that fact and are hence irrelevant, is simply that:  OBFUSCATION.  Stick to the issue at hand if you want to argue the point.

 

Absolutely, just as I said to OzGirl, I dont think mentioning that kids are dying elsewhere is justification for any child dying.  
I think each case should be:
 
investigated and
root cause determined and
corrective action taken (ever time, no exceptions).  

But it doesnt make sense to close every school down or every church down, take every car off the streets because of a few bad apples.  These deaths havent proved to be systemic.



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[Anonymous]

I think each case should be:

investigated and
root cause determined and
corrective action taken (ever time, no exceptions).

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The Programs' Death Warrant

Signed, TheWho

[TheWho]

Those suggestions are insufficient.
Parents need to ask very pointed questions.

Ask to see credentials then confirm they are legitimate.
Check with the state licensing agency to confirm that they are licensed and monitored. Ask if any complaints have been filed or if they have been cited for violations of regulations.
Any accidents, physical/sexual assaults, deaths?
Question blanket policies such as severing contact between parent and child for any length of time- totally unnecessary with ethical, evidence-based therapy.
Ask for a copy of the contract, policies, and parent manual. Have them reviewed by an attorney and psychologists.
Talk to parents on Fornits and other sites about their actual experience.
Talk to survivors about the same.
Research Synanon, est/Lifespring, CEDU method and determine if you are willing to allow your child to be exposed to 'experimental' treatment.
Do not take what's stated on the website or what they tell you at face value. For your child's sake, one must do due diligence.
That's for starters.

Well I think they were insufficient but a good first step on “The right pathâ€

[Anonymous]

I think each case should be:

investigated and
root cause determined and
corrective action taken (ever time, no exceptions).

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The Programs' Death Warrant

Signed, TheWho

What the....

What the hell.... ?  ::huh::

[Anonymous]

(I'll assume you're an actual anon instead of TheWho trying to pose as someone else.. again)

If government agencies did what he suggested- seriously investigated every credible report of abuse and every death, and assigned consequences accordingly- 9/10ths of the programs (he and the industry like to call his particular flavor of shitpit therapeutic boarding schools, but they are neither therapeutic nor truly schools) in existence would be put out of existence.

If parents followed the advice he posted regarding investigation and due diligence, there's no way this side of Hell they'd send their kids.

He's a programmie yet his own advice pretty much destroys the whole business.

THAT'S why it's funny. ::roflmao::

[TheWho]

(I'll assume you're an actual anon instead of TheWho trying to pose as someone else.. again)

If government agencies did what he suggested- seriously investigated every credible report of abuse and every death, and assigned consequences accordingly- 9/10ths of the programs (he and the industry like to call his particular flavor of shitpit therapeutic boarding schools, but they are neither therapeutic nor truly schools) in existence would be put out of existence.

If parents followed the advice he posted regarding investigation and due diligence, there's no way this side of Hell they'd send their kids.

He's a programmie yet his own advice pretty much destroys the whole business.

THAT'S why it's funny. ::roflmao::

As far as we know they are doing that now... I guess we will all find out in Feb 2008.



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[Anonymous]

I see resources as being, better trained people, hiring more people, better teacher child ratios, better child restraints in cars, faster reaction times for EMT's, more training for staff working with kids in wilderness. More EMT training.

Most of these programs have the resources (the money to hire qualified and trained professionals) they just choose not to do so.  They chose to line their pockets with it instead of using it to help the kids.  Look at the latest ad for Richey's program, the ad for employment.  (It is posted in another thread).  It talks about being located in a low income setting.  I interpret that to mean, we ain't gonna pay you much to work for us....but then the cost of living isn't much, so come on down.  You don't have to have a high school diploma, all that is required is a GED.  

Don't ge me wrong, I am not knocking people who have only a GED or who are low income individuals.  The point I am trying to make is most of the people who prosper off of this industry have the resources, the tuition is high, they just don't use it for what it should be used for.  The industry is profit driven.  They are going to cut all costs, to make a "big" buck.

Thats why it is a good idea for the parents to visit the schools and get to know who is going to be looking after their child and what training they have.

Why do they need to come down? If they want to know the training of the staff that info can be giben over the phone. The problem is that these cult/child torturers LIE about the qualifications of staff. Or give misleading information ie. have a "therepist" without a doctorate that the kid only sees rarely. The only adult that has regular cotnact with the kids is the "house parent" or whatever name they give the person who essentially acts as the guard, labor overseer

[Anonymous]

this is the part that scares me:


The follow-up Congressional Hearing is scheduled for February 2008. As an industry, we must prepare. There has never been a more critical time to further empower and rally the support of your families. Their voices need to be heard and their stories told. They are your strength, your strongest ally and are the evidence of your true and honest intent.

Translation:

The follow-up Congressional Hearing is scheduled for February 2008. As an industry, we must prepare. There has never been a more critical time to further deceive and solicit PR material from your families. They need to be bribed into telling only positive stories. With a month or two of free tuition in their pockets, they can become your strongest ally and can hide the evidence of your true profit-oriented intent and your questionable 'therapies.'

[TheWho]

I see resources as being, better trained people, hiring more people, better teacher child ratios, better child restraints in cars, faster reaction times for EMT's, more training for staff working with kids in wilderness. More EMT training.

Most of these programs have the resources (the money to hire qualified and trained professionals) they just choose not to do so.  They chose to line their pockets with it instead of using it to help the kids.  Look at the latest ad for Richey's program, the ad for employment.  (It is posted in another thread).  It talks about being located in a low income setting.  I interpret that to mean, we ain't gonna pay you much to work for us....but then the cost of living isn't much, so come on down.  You don't have to have a high school diploma, all that is required is a GED.  

Don't ge me wrong, I am not knocking people who have only a GED or who are low income individuals.  The point I am trying to make is most of the people who prosper off of this industry have the resources, the tuition is high, they just don't use it for what it should be used for.  The industry is profit driven.  They are going to cut all costs, to make a "big" buck.

Thats why it is a good idea for the parents to visit the schools and get to know who is going to be looking after their child and what training they have.

Why do they need to come down? If they want to know the training of the staff that info can be giben over the phone. The problem is that these cult/child torturers LIE about the qualifications of staff. Or give misleading information ie. have a "therepist" without a doctorate that the kid only sees rarely. The only adult that has regular cotnact with the kids is the "house parent" or whatever name they give the person who essentially acts as the guard, labor overseer

That is an extremely strange response... it is obvious you have no clue about the TBS industry.  This is a prime example of someone reading about some hell hole somewhere 30 years ago and then trying to relate his experiences to boarding schools.  
None of the information you provided above relates to any school that I have ever seen or read about, with house parents and therapists without degrees......This is also a prime example of why you dont want to count on what you hear on these forums or web sites (my self included)....
 and all the more reason to visit the schools and talk to kids at random (as I did) and have lunch with them.  Speak to parents who had been thru the program...speak to staff, ask about training and backgounds.   I agree they are not all the same that is why everyone needs to do their homework.



...

[Anonymous]

I see resources as being, better trained people, hiring more people, better teacher child ratios, better child restraints in cars, faster reaction times for EMT's, more training for staff working with kids in wilderness. More EMT training.

Most of these programs have the resources (the money to hire qualified and trained professionals) they just choose not to do so.  They chose to line their pockets with it instead of using it to help the kids.  Look at the latest ad for Richey's program, the ad for employment.  (It is posted in another thread).  It talks about being located in a low income setting.  I interpret that to mean, we ain't gonna pay you much to work for us....but then the cost of living isn't much, so come on down.  You don't have to have a high school diploma, all that is required is a GED.  

Don't ge me wrong, I am not knocking people who have only a GED or who are low income individuals.  The point I am trying to make is most of the people who prosper off of this industry have the resources, the tuition is high, they just don't use it for what it should be used for.  The industry is profit driven.  They are going to cut all costs, to make a "big" buck.

Thats why it is a good idea for the parents to visit the schools and get to know who is going to be looking after their child and what training they have.

Why do they need to come down? If they want to know the training of the staff that info can be giben over the phone. The problem is that these cult/child torturers LIE about the qualifications of staff. Or give misleading information ie. have a "therepist" without a doctorate that the kid only sees rarely. The only adult that has regular cotnact with the kids is the "house parent" or whatever name they give the person who essentially acts as the guard, labor overseer

That is an extremely strange response... it is obvious you have no clue about the TBS industry.  This is a prime example of someone reading about some hell hole somewhere 30 years ago and then trying to relate his experiences to boarding schools.  
None of the information you provided above relates to any school that I have ever seen or read about, with house parents and therapists without degrees......This is also a prime example of why you dont want to count on what you hear on these forums or web sites (my self included)....
 and all the more reason to visit the schools and talk to kids at random (as I did) and have lunch with them.  Speak to parents who had been thru the program...speak to staff, ask about training and backgounds.   I agree they are not all the same that is why everyone needs to do their homework.



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What makes you think I “readâ€